Live Blade in Self Defense?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by monkeywrench, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    It's the promotinal video from his website :cry:
  2. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Ignoring everything else for a sec, I can quite happily thrust into someone and hold a knife to their throat with pressure and support my weight, I don't understand the idea of physics making that impossible? I can do that with my other forearm pressed to her body like you would in north-south with the bonus of still having my weight on her.
    Could you explain that bit for me please?

    Also, and RBSD guys feel free to correct me, but I can't help feeling pulling closed guard is not a good idea
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I was avoiding a technical discussion in favour of the merits of live or otherwise....but it is far from ideal and clearly has been theorised rather than tested
  4. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    exactly it's a piece of cake. You could do it on your elbows even it's just so easy and 100% doable you can test it right now... I'm in awe of the inanity of the assertion it can't be done.

    I mean for god's sake anyone that has had sex knows you can move your hips and still use your damn hands jesus!!!!!:hat:
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
  5. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    I'm sorry but training for anything effectively eventually needs to be tested in sparring. You can't do that with a live blade. I don't care if you've spent the last 20 years in a building shaped like bruce lee's head training scripted drills with a live blade. When push comes to shove, if I have a knife and you don't but try to fight me then you're going to get cut or stabbed at least once.

    There's only two forms of knife defense - attack em back with another weapon - and if you ever meet someone from the phillipines who's been in real knife duals, they'll tell you that there are no REAL winners in a knife fight. Each guy usually ends up injured.

    Or you run. you don't start this crap.

    And by the by, why the hell would you do 3 knees then 3 elbows? First off, if you attempt to step inside clinching distance with someone much heavier than you, you're in trouble and secondly, there's very little power behind an elbow when compared with a simple cross. They're much more effective at cutting and that's not something thats worth doing in a self defense scenario. I'd say a much more likely method of defense would be to just lay a couple of rapid jab cross combos on the guy's chin then run if you know you won't be able to beat the guy in a fight or simply kick living daylights out of him otherwise.
  6. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    No, it's not. This is my promo video: [ame=""][/ame]

    That was a video for the university newspaper.
  7. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    I'm really not. I have no problem with you questioning the technique. That being said, we train it with 100% resistance, and it works. That is why we teach it. I don't teach anything that I haven't done with 100% resistance, or that doesn't have some other training goal (forms being an example of something that doesn't work in a fight, but that can be useful in small doses for building a better fighter).

    You have no evidence to support you above claim, besides your opinion, so cool it.
  8. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong about just slapping that damn leg out of the way?
    Grab her trouser leg and pull it to one side?
    Stand up, push it to one side and pass guard into side control?

    What you've shown there is the equivelant of a tall man putting (posting) his hand on a short person's forehead and then the short person swinging wildly while ignoring the posting arm.

    That said...using a guard and using your legs to control an attacker that is on top of you is valid.
    Just not like that IMHO.
  9. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Pulling closed guard is good for control, but pulling them down is bad; that's why you bridge away once the guard is closed.

    As for thrusting into someone, while holding a knife, and using your other arm, you really can't. We have actually tested this. How? (disclaimer for the squeemish): my wife, who trains as well, and I, tested this scenario with training equipment in a "more realistic setting," both on a soft bed and on a floor, which alters how you can move. It is very, very hard to do anything but menace with a knife effectively, while thrusting (as it were), and holding yourself up. Thus, it is relatively easy for someone to counter. Coincidently, it was the only position from which a defense could be even attempted, and is not the most common position for sexual assault (I believe from behind is more common).

    Also, as a note, I did not produce the video; lots was cut out by the Daily Tar Heel, including mentions of claws to the eyes, various effects of strikes, etc.
  10. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    As the video mentioned, it's designed to be used by someone who is trying not to hurt the assailant (who is assumed to be an acquittance or friend), typically on a couch. If the guy goes the next step and basically does any of the above you outlined (aka pass guard--though side control on a bed or couch is often non-existent due to a lack of width--not many queen+ sized beds in college), then the situation has progressed beyond what the technique was designed for, which is a stern "get off me" that is not hostile.

    As for pulling guard, that can work very well, but is not something you can teach someone to do well in a 2 hour seminar, where it is one of several techniques; also guard works less well on soft surfaces like couches and beds.

    The technique you were are referring to, by the way, was added in after we ran several seminars where the women kept asking for ways to be stern about saying no--by using some physical technique--without having to hit the guy etc. It's designed for the overly pushy guy on the couch/bed who isn't getting the message; it's not designed for someone trying to pass your guard (remember, sex is within the guard), nor for anything more serious than the above scenario, and we explain it as such.
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Seems a good class though.
  12. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Fair enough, I'm trying to get used to using open guard more in bjj for the manuevability and was thinking of that but I can see your point.

    As for the support apart from the knife (little outside my element) I've tried that way and I can manage it with some ease although the forearm bit I mentioned earlier would be better. That said if you've got it to work then hey.

    Moving onto another point how do you pull the knife away without cutting your neck?
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong wasn't the technique I had a problem with per se. It's a pretty fundamental BJJ staple. Foot in the hip.
    It was more your description that there was nothing the guy could do about it that got me.
    Like he'd just look down at it and scratch his head. :)
  14. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    1) when we train with weapons, we train and spar with training knives, with chalk on them, so you can see where you are cut. Hence, live training with sparring. So I agree 100% on that point; you have to train with resistance. Also, I agree there are no real winners in a knife fight. We do escrima. I tell everyone that in a knife fight, you will get cut. In the seminars, we explain that situation presented is an awful situation to be in, and that each person has to decide if they want to fight back, and realize they could die as a result, but that they have to weigh that cost against being sexually assaulted further.

    Second, why 3 knees and 3 elbows? Because you can't teach people to punch properly in a short seminar; elbows and knees you can. Also, I don't know why you think elbows have less power than a simple cross. Elbows have a lot of power, and are quite good at cutting. Jab/cross combos require a lot more skill on the part of the defender to use. We use sets of 3 to teach people not to simply throw single shots. The point of the seminar to increase base skills amongst the untrained, not generate a complete fighter in a 90-120 minute seminar--we also tell them this, and encourage the people participating to go train martial arts for a few years if they really want to develop skills.

    Finally, all of the techniques assume you can't run. Self-defense seminars shouldn't be about running; they assume you can't run from the get-go, otherwise you wouldn't be needing to learn self-defense.
  15. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    It's hard to describe in words, but it has to do with how one has to draw the cut across your neck, the presence of thumb-bed control on the knife, and back-bridging. Combined, the prevent the cut. Again, tested this with resistance.
  16. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Ah, gotcha. That is because they cut part of the explanation of the situation. It's for the couch/bed situation, where he is trying to get between the girl's legs. If the guy wants to pass guard, sure, the guy will scratch his head, but he wants to enter guard straight away, and a good leg to the hip prevents that damn well.
  17. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Um, no, it's been tested, as I have mentioned.
  18. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Next time you have sex in the missionary position, do it with no hands, while thrusting, without the lady helping hold you up properly. Try it :)
  19. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    well that's a moronic statement right there. Do you even know how to throw a proper elbow? There's probably more body mechanics required for a proper elbow than in a cross - all sorts of different angles and target with different positionings and body mechanics for each. A cross is simple by comparison. Regardless, the most important basica aspects of the elbow shown and a cross are the same - its based on rotating from the legs throw the hips and shoulder and into the arm. a Punch DOES have more power its simple fact. And I KNOW an elbow can cut - I've had a few myself. What I'm arguing is whats the point in cutting your opponent in a self defense situation. It neither impedes his ability to do whatever he was doing before or puts you in a better position to defend yourself. In fact I'd argue and attacker is likely to be more jacked off that you made him bleed and hit him back than he is to suddenly break off the attack because he's horrified at the thought of what an elbow cut scar will do for his modelling career.

    I've taught plenty of people how to throw a basic jab cross. It's probably the single most effective self defense technique there is and can be used in probably most of the common situations. advocating the use of an elbow against someone as a self defense tactic makes me think a few things:

    1) you've little to no idea how to use an elbow or the technique behind it
    2) you're taking money off people for something thats likely to get them into a worse situation than that which they were in previously
    3) you're trying to hard to come across as "martial artsy"

    To be honest, I've sparred with quite a few JKD guys who train with Frank Burczynski here in germany over the winter and they all sort of looked down me as a sport fighter. That typical "yeah you train for sport with rules" crap and "we train for the street!" and i found it exceedingly ironic that they all spent a lot of time training things like escrima, and how to fight with a knife and all these little techniques for situations that will likely never arise and not a single one of them could even remotely push me in sparring. They somehow seemed to think that including eye gouges and throat strikes would've somehow defeated my boxing and low kicks that continually laid them low.

    And what I learned from them, and you're demonstrating right now is this: most of them spent so damn long going on about how they'd take what worked from other martial arts and incorporate it but actually spent very little time understanding the martial arts in question. Like why, despite them also training thai kicks, they just didn't work the same way mine did. Or why standing right leg forward when you're right handed is a bloody stupid thing to do. Please, trust that I know a hell of a lot more about how and when to throw and elbow than you do and in a self defense situation you SHOULD NOT THROW AN ELBOW.
  20. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    1) Having taught for 10 years, I can say people learn a basic elbow far easier than a jab/cross. In the end, a jab/cross is better, I agree, but not in the context of one technique in many in a 2 hour seminar.

    As for sport fighters/assuming my background. I have an MMA fight team, with fighters who have competed (and won) in sanctioned ammie MMA fights. I respect sport fighters; I train sport fighters; I find sport fighting to a be great way to hone technique.

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