Liu He Ba Fa ? Water Boxing ?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by FuriousStyles, Oct 15, 2003.

  1. FuriousStyles

    FuriousStyles New Member

    Have found a little online about this style/form.
    Does anyone practice this, if so what is it comparable to, tai chi, ba gua ? Also is it a true style unto it's self or a complex form ?
    Any help is appreceated
  2. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!


    Which is Mike Patterson's site in SD, CA, USA
    for Mpegs of Bagau, Hsing-I, Tai Chi Chuan and Liu He Ba Fa
    which uses the first three arts as its base.
  3. bajiman

    bajiman New Member

    I have learned the first set of liu he ba fa chan
    It is said to be one of the three "closed door shaolin Forms"
    A sister art is called "Ba-Bu", and the thiurd is Hsing-I.
    There are several levels of liu he ....I guess its three levels of it.

    Liu he has a lot of close fighting applications, but it also teches one to use the fists fast and to the range one short range, medium range and even longer range than the opponents kicking (provided both fighters are equal in height).

    It has Mantis Style in it, Hsing-I style and a lot of throws/sweeps.
    Well Me, personally, I do like the form, it consists of 128 has been the sixth form I've learned of the shaolin sets

    To your questions: It is a unique style - rarely seen. It is said to be a true shaolin style.
    It is not comparable to bagua, rather to mantis and Hsing-I and I think it is a northern shaolin style.
    Comparabele to tai-chi? No, I do practise a little bit tai chi, and no, not comparable in my view.

    Our Grandmasster taught it to my Master - look in the web for Liu yun chao.

    Hmmm....found some more.......seems like I been told "stories"....

    look for yourself:
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2003
  4. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Sorry to rain on your pagoda, but Liu He Ba Fa, Hsing et al are Not Shaolin Anythings.

    Those arts have nowt, nada, niet, nunca to do with Shaolin. Having developed mighty seperately from said Shaolin doodads.

    And, Liu He Ba Fa is is a direct agglomation of Tai Chi Chuan , Hsing-I etc.

    The opening movements in LHBF are those of Tai Chi Chuan, the shoulder control with waist torsion against a grab (can't remember it's Fancy name now).

    BlahblahBa Fa.
  5. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Indeed I will even go as far to add that Liu He Ba Fa was a Wudan Family art that is said to date back hundreds of years. Sokklab is correct when he states that it is very much a member of the internal schools, but was kept a closely guarded secret for many years.

    I am currently trying to get in touch with a Sifu in Sydney who after learning LHBF from a Taoist Priest, he was taught an even older set which he callled "Wun Cheun Yut Hay Geun" (Cantonese) meaning "Continusly Circulating One Breath Palm". He says it is both a Chi Gung and a martial arts that predates even LHBF.

    I hope he's still in Sydney...
  6. bajiman

    bajiman New Member

    Strange - I'll have to ask my master again.
    And - my opening is not at all Tai-Chi like - rather really very shaolin like......*grab opponents hand and kick in belly* is the first move after opening gesture.....

    Yes, I am practising Wudang Style, and more over, the older I become, the more I am interested in internal arts......and...about Hsing-I, it is the predecessor of Wing far as I know. Correct me there, If I am wrong.....thx for the replys
  7. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Valued Member

    Liu He Ba Fa

    Liu He Ba Fa is internal boxing. It has very strong similarities to it's three sister arts: Tai Ji Quan, Ba Gua Zhang, Xing Yi Quan.

    It's sometimes referred to as the "fourth" style of internal boxing. There are probably dozens of sub-styles of the internal arts mentioned above; there are doubtless many other internal styles that are unknown because they are family styles, clan styles, etc., that went underground during the Cultural Revolution.

    Wing Chung and Xing Yi Quan developed separately.


    Steve Lamade
  8. bajiman

    bajiman New Member

    Oooohhh....thank you God's man......!
    Really, I appreciate beaucoup votre reponse!
    Where do you have these informations from? I am just wondering...

    mais, vraiment, je te remercie beaucoup!
  9. lhommedieu

    lhommedieu Valued Member

    Liu He Ba Fa

    Student of Xing Yi Quan since 1995.


  10. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Bajiman try

    a good site of Mike Patterdens school in Sd, Usa.

    Hsing-I, Ba Gua, Tai Chi Chuan, LHBF, Chin Na etc.
  11. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    I am soon to be studying one of those ancient closed door styles which pre-dates Liu He Ba Fa and comes down from two senior Taoist Priests. I feel quite priveldged to have this opportunity and feel a debt of duty to preserve this art as accurately as it will be taught to me.

    The sad thing is that the Chinese Gvt seek only to preserve and even worse, then standardize the forms and styles that *they* deem pretty. Styles such as Wu Hao are little known and little practised because it is so small in frame that they deemed it unattractive and not showy enough to be worth preserving.

    The irony of this is that Wu Hao escapes standardisation on the one hand and possibly survives in the hands of the few, who will hopefully preserve the art in as pure a fashion as possible.
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2003
  12. zun

    zun New Member

    Sounds fascinating Syd.

    Any more details?
  13. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    G'day Zun, :)

    When I reffered to the older system which pre-dates LHBF, I was not intending to mean Wu Hao Taijiquan. As you will by now be familiar Wu Hao is one of the two Wu branches of Taijiquan that came down from Yang Lu Chan.

    Wu Hao was taught to Wu in Yongnian, Yang Lu Chan's province of Hebei. He then went and learn't Chen style from the Chen family and blended the two to produce Wu Hao. Wu Hao is a very small frame indeed and looks to be extremely inactive. This doesn't mean nothings going on though.

    As I said before, sadly, the Chinese Gvt
    did not think it worth preserving because the movements are too internal to get a nice Wushu performance.! The fact that it stays true to the tenets of Taijiquan seems to be entirely besides the point and they would rather have large open framed styles preserved.

    Not that there is anything wrong with open framed Taijiquan, I practice YCF myself, but it is a weird kind of materialistic discrimination.

    The other style which I have been accepted to learn, along with Liu He Ba Fa, is an indoor Taoist art which only surfaced outside the Temple in 1981. My new Sifu being chosen to be the first westerner to recieve transmission of this unknown Taoist form, he was told that he could pass it down as he saw fit to students he deemed worthy.

    This form was created around 206 B.C - 220 AD during the Han dynasty. It is superior to Liu He Ba Fa. This system consists of two seperate form sets and the movements can be described as one continuous flow of Qigong exercises. As with the most internal martial art the goal is to achieve the 6 unions.

    The method of striking and developing internal energy is unique to the system and truly Taoist in principle. I am very fortunate to have this chance to study with my new teacher and look forward to discussing deeper aspects of these arts. ;)

    Best, Syd
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2003
  14. Shade

    Shade New Member

    Hi Syd,

    I am just starting my own journey into the internal martial arts, but find myself captivated by what you describe here.

    I sincerely wish you a satisfying and fulfilling journey along your new path. :)
  15. zun

    zun New Member

    Hi Syd,

    Truly sounds fascinating, mate! Wish I was there to practise the art with you.

    Could you explain how the method of striking of the ancient art is unique in relation to Yang Lu Chan Taiji?

    Wish all the success.

  16. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Shade, ;)

    Thanks mate, I apreciate your kind comments.


    Well the art that I am describing has a very intricate qigong method which also involves daily excercises learning to control the glutes in order to effect upper body striking in such a way that it does not telegraph your intention.

    You are essentially using your buttock muscles to control the arms and upper body in much the same way as the waist in Old Yang dictates whip like striking in fajin.

    Thats essentially it. ;)
  17. Shade

    Shade New Member

    Hey Syd,

    No worries. :)

    It would be great to hear how you find this new art, and to hear some of your experiences along the way too.

    Who knows, maybe one day I will be looking you up to see if I can be your student ;)
  18. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami


    Crikey, I'll be an old boy if I get to the stage where I'm feeling good enough to teach others. But it's a funny thing, I really believe that a teacher cannot actually teach you anything perse'. A teachers role I believe is more akin to a guide than anything else.

    They say in China that a teacher for a day is like a parent for a lifetime. I would actually very much enjoy helping people to discover their own personal potential one day in regards to the internal arts. They also say that a good teacher is one that learns from his students too.

    I like learning from everybody I meet and somewhere in the exchange everybody goes home full. So perhaps if you make to OZ one day you'll show me a few things also, I'm far from masterful!

    All the best, Syd ;)
  19. zun

    zun New Member


    One day I hope to return to Sydney and I'll look you up. And hopefully one day you'll come to visit Erle and you'll return the favour. :)
  20. Xuesheng

    Xuesheng New Member

    New to this forum, so this is my first post. I practice both traditional and contemporary wushu, as well as Yang and Chen style taijiquan. I started learning the main Liu He Ba Fa set about a month ago and have been looking for people who practice it to dialogue with.

    Also, some people were asking for information on it. Tai Chi magazine had a cover story on it awhile ago and Inside Kung Fu had an article on it by Liu Xiaolong several months back. A videotape is also available with Helen Liang teaching the set. Also, YMAA publications (Boston, Mass., U.S.A.) just recently published a book on Liu He Ba Fa. I have not seen a book available in English on it until now.

    Anyway, hope those are helpful. I'd really like to hear from anyone who's also practicing it--you can PM me or respond to this link. Keep training hard!


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