Let's hear about female masters (TKD)

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Thomas, Jul 30, 2005.

  1. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    My wife is currently preparing for her master's test next year. In my school, we test close to 50/50 for men and women for black belt. Considering that we have more males begin, I think that shows the ladies as a group have more commitment overall.
     
  2. TraditionalTKD

    TraditionalTKD New Member

    In our organization, five women have attained the rank of Master Instructor out of how many thousands of students taught over 30 years. Now, five women is better than none, but certainly more needs to be done to reverse this. I am convinced that this is due to a couple of factors:

    1. Some Instructors are just outright sexist and favor male students over female.

    2. Female students often get caught up in working, raising a family, and other factors outside class that ultimately supercede Tae Kwon Do obligations.

    3. I think many female students get messages that Tae Kwon Do is a man's game. It's okay for a while, but nothing you should pursue seriously as a woman.

    If you talk to them, many female students and Masters will tell you that they often felt like second class citizens, especially if their Instructor was a man.
     
  3. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    I thought master and master instructor are two seperate things. I know (like Kickchick) different orgs have different requirements. Several have Master at the 5th dan level. The ITF and WTF are simply the biggest kids on the block.
     
  4. neryo_tkd

    neryo_tkd Valued Member

    one of the reasons why female martial artists quit at a certain point of time is pregnancy. a friend of mine used to be a really great competitor, but then she got pregnant, and she had to take care of the baby. she didn't find time to come to the training sessions, then came the second child and she completely quit.
     
  5. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member

    This is when you give credit to all the guys out there that support their MA women !!!!

    I know with me if it hadn't been for the support of my husband in getting me back to TKD training after giving birth, it would have been very easy for me to make the decision to quit.
     
  6. neryo_tkd

    neryo_tkd Valued Member

    i completely agree with you. it's great when there is mutual support. if that friend of mine had the same support you had, i'm sure, she would've continued training.
     
  7. inbuninbu

    inbuninbu "Train hard, fight easy"

    TKD + remains of patriarchy!

    Even many instructors who are very even-minded still retain a slight bias in the way they treat women and men competitors... often its unconscious, what you could call the dregs of patriarchy, still sifting around unconsciously in their brain.

    But this goes (imho) for every sphere of life. People try, but the tiniest inconsistencies remain, ingraine dby centuires of blokes dictating the rules. Perhaps one day women will get their turn to domnanate...

    Not that Im claiming thats fair, right, moral, just or anything other than just enjoyable revenge. Mwah hah ha... :D

    Anyone back me up on the "dregs of patriarchy" theory??
     
  8. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Your entire tone is condescending to people with special needs and your means of evaluating people based on "having the look of a tiger in their eyes" is incredibly naive and superficial.

    Having travelled around the world and meeting a lot of "tough customers", many of the ones with the "look" were paper tigers who relied on their intimidation factor. Many of the most dangerous people I have met have not indeed looked very dangerous at all.

    Many "special kids" I have met (and trained, taught, or worked with) showed a hell of a lot more determination and spirit than the guys with the "look"... imagine trying to learn the whole curriculum with a mind that doesn't work well or with a body that is in pain 24 hours a day when you aren't even moving.

    Personally I prefer to based people's abilities on their demonstrated techniques, work ethic, dedication, and what they do in class. If I could rate people on what color uniform they wear or the look in their eyes then I could close the school and do testing by mail order. I guess I'll have to keep plugging away in class.

    Anyway, I don't see anything further that I care to discuss with you so I will let the offence drop if you will (not trying to moderate - just trying to get the topic back on track).

    On the topic

    Personally I think a big influence in the class on how successful women students are is the prescence of strong female role models/instructors. One of our "senior instructors" is a 3rd dan WTF/1st dan ICHF black belt who has been with us forever and who works hard and trains hard. She did well in TKD on the tournament circle and has branched out to cardio-kickboxing and cross trained in BJJ, Canemasters, and other stuff. Her focus has become personal protection and self defence with a focus on women's needs.

    Students of both genders love Mrs. M's classes and what she brings to it. (see photo album and journal) I know that many of the women students see her as "the kind of martial artist to be" and this motivates them. Someday she will be a "master" and it will be well deserved.

    As for male and female black belts, I think Master Gray has promted roughly equal numbers of each, although some of the women have left to raise kids.
     
  9. Split_level

    Split_level New Member

    I read an article saying that there are only 4 women in the world to hold the title of 8th Dan.. is this true and if so how does that figure compare with men?

    I personally believe that instructors male or female should be addressed by their title, where i train we call our instructors Miss or Sir.

    I think by using the title of Master creates an equality for the instructors, especially for the high ranking senior female instructors.

    Chances are if an instructor was introduced to you as. Mr Taekwondo and and Miss Taekwondo (apart from having very good last names for TKD) most would probably assume that the male instructor was more senior than the female instructor just by the way society using the terms Miss and Mr.

    1 Miss -unmarried young women - seen to have lower status coz shes unwed
    2. Missy - name of a dog
    3. Miss - girl you see at the check out
    4. Miss whatever - name of young girl who is a PA to high powered boss
    5. Miss - "lower" title to that of Mrs in society

    and Mr

    1 Mr whatever - Bank manager you what to be really nice to
    2 Mr whoever - term of respect towards a man.

    By calling male and female instructor "Master" would make you think that both the instructors were of equal importance and ability
     
  10. neryo_tkd

    neryo_tkd Valued Member

    is it really so?
     
  11. TraditionalTKD

    TraditionalTKD New Member

    I don't believe that the term "Master" is used differently for male and female Instructors. In other words, I don't believe Tae Kwon Do etiquette allows for two different forms of "Master" to be used based on gender. Master is used as a term of respect for the rank of 4th Dan and above regardless of gender. However, very often people in the United States have a problem calling someone "Master" becomes it almost implies you are subordinate to me, which goes against our culture. As a result, you can either ask the person how they wish to be addressed, or use the Korean terms.
    I do not believe in using "Master" for males and Mrs/Miss/Ms for women. That does strike me as being condescending based on gender-as if the female Instructor in question had not earned the right to be addressed properly.
     
  12. TraditionalTKD

    TraditionalTKD New Member

    Okay, I was able to peruse the Tae Kwon Do Times article about B.C. Yu and his female Instructors. I wish I was able to say "You know, I stand corrected. Everything about him and them was amazing". Unfortunately, I can't. Horrible. Horrible technique, horrible stances. Very interesting that one of his black belts wrote the article, so you know it couldn't be biased. I'm sorry if anyone got offended, but so be it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2005
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    At least you read the article. Hopefully someday we'll get to see you in action... in a magazine, your webpage, or in some photos on this site.

    Personally, I still disagree that on makiing an evaluation on an instructor, student or even system based on what color uniform they wear, a few pictures in a magazine, name of a style, or whether or not they look like a "special kid". As a person who wear mixed color uniforms and trains in a style called "Combat Hapkido", I am probably on your "suspected McDojo instructors" list.

    All I can say is come visit us if you can (you are more than welcome), check out what I've posted before on the forum, in my journal, and in my photo gallery, and make your own decision.

    (Disclaimer: I am by no means trying to moderate, merely expressing my personal opinion.)
     
  14. TraditionalTKD

    TraditionalTKD New Member

    You will very likely never see me in a magazine. Not because I feel I'm not good enough, but because I feel it is more important to train, produce good students, and have a worthwhile life than waste time trying to impress Tae Kwon Do Times enough to get on the cover. Anyway, based on who has been on the cover in the past, such illustrious company I don't need.
    If I am ever in a magazine, it will probably be in one that has nothing to do with Tae Kwon Do.
     
  15. sonic

    sonic New Member

    From what I hear, Taekwondo Times is not really that reliable a source. Anyone who loves the magazine, do not get offended, cause I'm simply stating what I hear and to me, it makes a bit of sense. Don't ask me to support the statement either, since it is only my opinion and I'm entitled to that.

    You know, I'm actually interested in the debate between TraditionalTKD and Thomas. By any chance, is there an online version that maybe I can take a peek at? Cause, actually, horrible form IS horrible form. You can't deny that if it really is bad form and anyone with experience can usually tell. As for the eye of the tiger kind of thing, I think that depends. I find every really serious MA artist have that "eye", but only at certain times. The person could be the most fun, happy, loving person most of the time, but at certain times their eyes betray a certain dangerous sheen... a look you wouldn't see normally. haha, call me a dramatist, but that's what I simply experienced. It could be different. I'm not cocky enough to declare that its the same everywhere. :p

    As for female masters, I've had two who taught me, and others who were not yet Masters but competent and dedicated nonetheless. One taught me the power of speed, while the other taught me certain strategy. There is undoubtedly a bit of "male-dominance" in TKD, like in any walk of life or sport, (boxing for example), but I think it's only a matter of time. There are simply not enough at the moment, but I believe in due time there will be an availability of female masters, coaches, head instructors since there would be more people who have the qualifications/experience needed to take higher positions in the TKD world. What I love usually about female instructors/Masters (I'm generalizing here) is that I found they are far more tactical than the average male instructors/Masters.
     
  16. TraditionalTKD

    TraditionalTKD New Member

    Sonic,

    1. There is an online version: go to Yahoo and search under Tae Kwon Do Times (I forget the name of the actual website).

    2. You're right: bad form is bad form. I don't agree with everything Hee Il Cho does, but can't deny he has excellent form. On the flip side, an Instructor can be a nice guy but teach lousy form. What I saw in the photos, demonstrated by supposed Master Instructors, was plain bad form. Bad stances, bad kicking, and bad blocking. And it all goes back to the Head Instructor. It's not a personal attack, it's what I saw.

    3. You're right about the Eye of the Tiger not being on all the time, nor should it. You'd scare too many people out in public. Yes the Eye of the Tiger does exist. Some call it good concentration, strong ki, self assuredness. It's all pretty much the same. My Instructor can be the nicest guy in the world, all smiles. But when he gets that look during teaching, watch out. I know strong men who fear very little, but they fear that look.



    Also, the thing about Tae Kwon Do Times is that being in TKDT or on the cover does not mean you are a great Instructor. From what I've been told, being on the cover means you've guaranteed them a dollar amount of sales in your organization. Basically it means you paid to be on the cover.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 7, 2005
  17. sonic

    sonic New Member

    Well, I tried the online site. Unfortunately, it's very tiny and it isn't clear. Now, it isn't right to judge by just pictures alone of course, but this is just what I saw. From what I saw, there was a bit of shabby form in the single page I could see. I don't know about GRM. B.C. Yu, but I saw one of the female Masters and she was doing a side kick. The side kick was slanted, her butt was sticking out, and she seemed off balance. Plus, her shoulders were tight and her fists were tightly clenched and tucked into her chest. We all know, that's not good form, and for a magazine no less, whether legitimate or not. The other Masters I saw in that one page seemed tight in the shoulders as well with fists tucked. But that was for just one pic that I saw so, who knows. I went to GRM. B.C. Yu's site, and he seems to be a great guy with good philosophy and with every teacher, there are always students who are not up to par. So, I'll just give him the benefit of the doubt.

    haha, TraditionalTKD, have you ever fought anyone who had the "eye of the tiger"? It's bloody scary! haha, I was wondering if I have it or not. I just know that I scared the bejesus out of a few people on one of those days when I was in "the zone".... :D Somehow, I'm proud and sorry at the same time... :p haha ;)

    Le'ts just say for Taekwondo Times, I heard lots of bad things. Including what you said about $$$ and from others about a certain strong bias towards certain types of tkd or heck, not even tkd at all. Not really objective news...
     
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    [cue Survivor song] Well, putting the aside "eye of the tiger" and the journalistic integrity of the TKD Times...[/cue Survivor song]

    Anyone else have direct experience working with female TKD masters in a dojang or at a seminar? Let's hear about it.



    (Disclaimer: not trying to moderate, just trying to get the thread back on topic)
     
  19. TraditionalTKD

    TraditionalTKD New Member

    Actually, I have.

    Our organization sponsors a seminar in Tennessee every year for gup and Dan students and Instructors. Several of the presenters are female. The male Instructors tend to demonstrate things like self defense, various techniques, and motivation. The female Instructors have led seminars on the health benefits of Tae Kwon Do, first aid, meditation. Subjects that are not as physical, but nonetheless beneficial to know. I keep trying to get my wife to present a stretching seminar, but her schedule usually does not allow it.
    Additionally, our tournament team has two coaches: the mens' coach and the womens' coach. The womens' coach is every bit as focused as the mens' coach.
    So I respect female Masters as much as male Masters. Maybe not the ones in Tae Kwon Do Times, but overall I respect them. They bring their own strengths to the table.
     
  20. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    I've never noticed a difference between men and women instructors. Doesn't make any difference to me really. Actually I do notice one dif, the women don't seem like they have to impress anyone. Theres too many instructors out there who have to be overly macho.

    TKD Times does have a lot of articles where they are written by one of the subjects BB's. One of the issues I have with the magazine is the overly posed photographed. In one recent issue, a GM was on the cover and in a major article and in every shot hes looking menacingly directly at the camera regardless of the action. Doing joint locks and flips, high kicks etc.... and staring at the camera to make sure he gets his good side. One of my kids who hates to read was even laughing at the pics. Over all I like the magazine though even though it does have its flaws.
     

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