Why so much hate towards Lesnar? Sure he used some HGH in the past, but he's still very athletic. Couture is and has been one of my favorite fighters, but you got to give some respect to Lesnar. Why do people say Mir spanked Lesnar? Lesnar was OWNING him until Mir got a shot at his ankle and submitted him. If anything, Mir was the one who was getting spanked and taken down to the ground every time. Only thing that saved him was Lesnar's mistake of trying to step over him. Cro Cop vs. Lesnar? Serioiusly? If he could beat Couture, then he can beat Cro Cop. Now Nog vs. Lesnar, Fedor vs. Lesnar, or Fedor vs. Couture would be some damn good fights to see.
the reason lesner gets no respect is: 1.) his victories arent really out of skill, sure he can wrestle; but most of his victories are out of the fact that he is freeking huge and just lays on his opponent while he ground and pounds them.( thats not skill, and alot of people hat that). 2.) u have people who fought for years before a title shot, and after his 4th fight he gets one!! 3.) i watched the replay 3 times and i still think coutor took a dive. 4.) plus hes a bad winner. he acts worse than tito. people hate seeing those people win 5.) oh and when he fought mir i wouldnt consider him owning him. sure he got some hits in and a takedown. but he hit him more than once in the back off the head, and when they got back up it was obvious mir new what he was doing.
It is not just size that makes him good. There are plenty of big guys out there that have had very short careers. Lesnar is big, quick, agile, etc. Again I'm not a fan of his. But when I saw the Mir fight I was just shaking my head at how much potential he had.
Wrestling is a skill. And he's very good at it. He does lack skill in some other areas, but his victories really have been at least partially out of skill. Yeah, it's ridiculous and should be embarrassing for them. Nog is the real champion (and I said so before the Lesnar won and I'd say so if Couture had won instead). This is a serious accusation and I really doubt that you have anything to back it up. Don't fighter-bash. Worse than Tito? That seems like an exaggeration. I don't know. It might be part of the reason for the hate... Mir dominated him. Those illegal shots weren't doing anything anyway and they were, well, illegal. I've seen this claim numerous times, but I'm still skeptical. He looked almost lethargic against Couture (but both guys looked slow in that fight--it was weird). He didn't seem to be outspeeding Herring (just outwrestling him and overpowering him). And the only thing he did quickly against Mir was get kneebarred (okay, okay, he also had fast takedowns there, but it's not like they were particularly special for a wrestler of his caliber).
Please name these HW fighters.... Being taller is not the same. Again name a fighter who is as big AND fast AND strong as Lesnar. You can cherry pick a fighter who is faster OR stronger OR bigger, but they won't have all three. Mir was having his butt handed to him by Lesnar when he made a mental mistake and got caught. I doubt Lesnar makes the same mistake in a rematch. For those who think Brock won by luck...he has hit three opponents in the UFC with the same right hand and all three went down, I wouldn't call that luck. If it was one time occurrence yes but not three consecutive fights.
Choi is both bigger and and probably stronger but as he's not a HW, he'd never make the division limit (265) so its pretty pointless comparing the two. Personally I think Lesner is probably the biggest and strongest and one of the quickest HW's in the world. He was quicker than Herring, Coulture and Mir and none of them are slow. Herring in particualar is actually very quick for his size and Brock was noticably faster and more explosive. By his own admission Mir was getting battered before he got the sub and that was Brock's SECOND fight, and the first against decent opposition. He's got better since then and I don't think a rematch with Mir is a foregone conclusion at all. I agree with you about Nog though, I think he'll armbar or RNC Lesner. He'd better do anyway, if he loses I'll feel like I did when CC got KOed by Gonzaga
Who said anything about "taller"? Are you saying that because I brought up Choi? He's definitely bigger than Lesnar too. AS for your triple threat of bigger, stronger, and faster, two of those are harder to measure if not at least a little bit subjective. I could say that I think a fighter is bigger, stronger, and faster, but you might disagree. I don't see why it matters though. A fighter doesn't need to be all three of those to beat Lesnar decisively. Actually, a fighter doesn't need to be even one of those to beat Lesnar decisively. Again with this blaming Lesnar's loss solely on Lesnar? As I said before in another thread, this could be applied to literally anyone. I don't know why people only use it for him. Give credit where credit is due. That kneebar was awesome. The thing I'd call pointless is the cap on the HW division. He didn't look at all quicker than Couture to me. Or Mir, for that matter. Herring is sometimes very explosive and sometimes lazy, though. He can be "battered" for two and a half rounds before the sub and still win the match. If Lesnar's G&P had been so incredibly effective, it would have been, well, effective. I do think that he's improved, though. I'm just skeptical that it's enough already. It's not like the kneebar from that position is the only way for Mir to win. He does do other subs and Lesnar will need truly solid submission defense... Yeah.
Brock has been doing amateur wrestling since he was five, and was the US college (NCAA) wrestling champion in 2000. He had a choice to either train for the Olympics, or go into pro wrestling. Pro wrestling pays much better, so... With all due respect, there's been no proof of this, or even claims from anyone who's known him. Lesnar's always been a big boy. Wrestling is a skill. So is ground-and-pound. He doesn't "lay" on his opponent, he uses good possitional skills from wrestling (riding, as opposed to the guard pass-side control-mount game played by BJJ) to control his opponent and limit their offensive options. And he's really not that much bigger than the other heavyweights. This is a sentiment I can agree with. I don't think he earned his shot. I don't think he's paid his dues yet. But, let's be honest, this match probably made the UFC more money than all but maybe one or two shows. I can see why they'd do it. I just think Werdum, Carwin, or someone like that was more deserving. Well, you're entitled to your opponion, but I think the fact that he got hit with a fist so big that they have to custom-make gloves for it probably had something to do with it, too. Again, I'd have to disagree. Tito flipping off the cornermen, wearing T-shirts that disrespect his opponent, and making grave-digging motions is far worse than Brock pointing and laughing at Herring. They had some history, too. Herring had basically said that Brock wasn't worthy of him. And they did shake hands after the match... Lesnar was winning 85 out of 90 seconds of that fight. That's how long it took Mir to get a single offensive move in. Now, it was the fight-winning move, and hats off to him. He had a bad possition and ended up winning. But not only was Lesnar getting "some hits in and a takedown" (I mean, how else do you quallify dominance when the opponent can't do anything back?), but early on he did a good job of staying out of Mir's guard, using his scrambling and riding abilities to move around to his head. And in fairness, even though it's illegal, it's hard to blame Lesnar entirely for hitting the back of Mir's head. Mir had rolled over and wasn't doing much to defend himself. When Mazagatti stepped in, I thought he was going to stop the match. But my point is that if Mir had been able to better control Lesnar, he wouldn't have just rolled over and hid his face. The man moves fast in a scramble. And he moves relatively fast for a guy who would eat his way to 300lbs in a sitting. I wouldn't say he's fast, exactly, but explosive. Short bursts of speed. However pointless you think it is, the fact remains that Choi isn't a HW under any rules that the UFC would use. And for argument's sake, if you're not going to put a cap on the HW division, why not take away the caps for other divisions? Go back to when the UFC had Heavyweight (200+) and Lightweight (199 and under). After all, if you could have a 325lb Choi fight a guy he outweighs by 100lbs, why not have Miguel Torres fight a guy who outweighs him by 50lbs or 70lbs? Come on. Weight caps are there for the fighter's safety.
Man I wish I was on this thread before the fight. I coulda told y'all the outcome before it happened. Course saying after the fact don't matter. Look dude your totally wrong. That is the standard bull everyone says when their fighter loses. The truth is that Couture got his ass beat by Dana white being sued for 15 months. Being trapped in litigation isn't the ideal situation for a fighter in the twilight of his career. Couture was making an honest effort to unify the HW division against Fedor Emelianko and when the UFC got in the middle it messed everything up. Couture was left to rust and couldn't train properly cuz he was trying to see the litigation through. He wasn't running out of options and racing against father time. Unfortunately Dana White had enough money and suits to throw at Couture to wear him down into taking a fight against Lesnar, A fight he wasn't motivated for.
Which only reflects poorly on the UFC. If Choi did happen to be dominating everywhere else, the UFC would simply be saying, "Sorry, but you're too big to be a fighter as far as we're concerned." That just seems bad for the sport. If they don't have a weightclass for guys like him, they should let them in the biggest weight class. Because they're not the biggest one? That's not a lack of caps. That's just putting caps in different places. And the weight difference when you get up there doesn't have same effect. If Choi's enormous size made him so impossible for other fighters to beat, why is he 1-1? Is there any data showing that the cap on the heavyweight division specifically provides safety? The other divisions have nothing to do with it.
Well he's not so thats hypothetical. Offically fighters over 265 are super HW. Here is a list: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder....nickname=&association=&weight=265.1+AND+999.0 There was actually a SHW fight in the UFC, Tim Sylvia vs Gan Mcgee. Since then they have discontinued the division simply because there is not enough talent to supoort one. No but MMA is still illegal in some countries and even some states in the US, including NY, and sports commisions do not like large weight differences. If a huge fighter like Choi came in and beat a small HW it would do the UFC's campaign to prove that MMA is a legitimate sport considerable damage.
Thank you, Captain Obvious. Officially according to the UFC? I don't see why that would matter. They don't have a superheavy weight class anyway. And any talented fighters who happen to be that heavy are left to fight in other organizations. Which they've done. Campaign? Oh, come on. What is this? The 90's?
This isn't the UFC's doing. Well, not directly. The separation of weight classes was created under the Unified Rules, which were put together by the various state athletic commissions. It's not like Dana White and the Ferttita brothers were standing in front of a giant dry-erase board and trying to figure this out. If the UFC hadn't abided by the Unified Rules, there's a good chance that it wouldn't exist today, and that MMA in the US would have all but disappeared. So it's bad for the sport that we'll never have a Sapp-Nogueira rematch? As Snoop said, there's already a SHW division. Only a handful of guys actually have the tallent to be watchable above that weight, and most of them could cut to 265 if they wanted: Bigfoot Silva (already done so), Tom Erikson, Mark Hunt... Brock Lesnar... If Hong Man Choi fought Randy Couture or Brandon Vera, he'd have a 100lbs weight advantage. That's rougly 1/3rd of their body weight. If two guys fight at 155, and one walks around at 160, and the other at 185, which is huge for that weight class, there would still only be roughly 15% of a "natural" weight difference between them. And some of that would be diminished by having to weigh in at the same weight. Nobody is going to go from 155 to 185 overnight. Percentage-wise, there's far less of a difference at the lower weight classes than in the extreme case of Couture-Choi. I don't recall anyone saying he was impossible to beat. However, the fact that the guy who beat him is considered not only the best HW in the world, but one of the best fighters, doesn't help your case much. But think about this: as good as Fedor's takedowns are, he still ended up underneath Choi, twice. If Choi had any submission defense other than "fling arm around", how do you think that fight would have gone? Well, the flip side of the argument is that weight doesn't matter in a fight. Surely you don't believe that. How do you think your average welter weight, say Josh Burkman, would handle your average LWH, say Thiago Silva? With a mere 35lbs separating them, what chance do you think Burkman would have of winning? How about HW vs. LW: Assuero Silva vs. Clay Guida? Would you really consider that anything close to a fair fight? At what point does size difference no longer become a factor? Bigger guys will hit harder, are harder to take down, are stronger, and carry more mass in a ground battle. Do you honestly believe that any other heavyweight, besides maybe Lesnar, could have manhandled Nogueira like Sapp did? Do you believe any other heavyweight could have tossed Fedor around in the air with one arm like Choi did? I don't think we need any studies to show that fighting a bigger, stronger, harder-hitting opponent places you in a riskier situation than fighting one your own size. Don't kid yourself. MMA is still illegal in places like New York State and Ontario Province. It's still seen as barbaric, human "rooster"-fighting by a lot of the public, and worse, by a lot of politicians. MMA has come a long way since the days when it was taken off of TV, but it's not out of the woods yet.
lol, that takes me back to my school days! Obvious it may have been, but it still didn't strike you that the point you were making, was...pointless. There are very very few 'talented' fighters who weigh more than 265. Care to name a couple? Choi has had 2 MMA fights and is not talented at MMA, he was a threat to Fedor due to his size, not his skill. If you don't know about the UFC's high profile campaign to legalise MMA in NY then you should read more and educate yourself before writing comments like that.
Are you thinking of Antonio "Bigfoot" Silva, who's only lost to Eric Pele? Because he's actually fought at 265 before. http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Antonio-Silva-12354 Paulo Cesar de Silva, AKA "Giant" Silva, weighs closer to 400lbs, has only won twice, and quite frankly sucks more than a Hoover. http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Paulo-Cesar-Silva-9400
True. It still sucks. But the UFC has pretty much been at the mercy of athletic commissions. Also true, but I don't see any good reason that they should have to cut down to 265 (maybe they fight better without having to cut weight). And the even smaller group of talented fighters who cannot cut down to that weight are left out entirely. I don't think it matters too much right now, but in principle, it's a bad thing. This assumes that all that weight is always an advantage. I'm not arguing that it isn't an advantage at 185 vs. 155. But the same doesn't necessarily apply with heavier fighters. The human frame has limits. What is it that you think my case is? Fedor being "one of the best fighters" shouldn't matter if the massive weight difference is such an advantage and the bigger fighter is relatively competent. If Fedor had thought taking it to the ground wasn't good enough and that he needed to land on top, he probably wouldn't have gone for the exact same move again. He was apparently content to fight off his back there. Also, I'm not so sure Choi's armbar defense was THAT bad. His arms being so long undoubtedly made pulling off the armbar quite awkward, but probably also made defending difficult. I'm not sure. Fedor has armbarred a lot of people in any case, and surely not all of them were because the opponents sucked at submission defense... Of course not. I've said as much. How is it the "flip side" of anything I said? It's always a factor. But the fact that heavyweights, many of them on the small side of the weight class, are able to beat huge opponents, ones that would be superheavyweights, on a pretty regular basis suggests that the comparison between such fights and fights between the other weight classes is flawed somehow. I don't need to be able to say what the "somehow is." But I believe I do know... Like I said, the human frame has limits. A 150-pound man going up against a 185-pound man faces an opponent who is likely to be considerably stronger, with more powerful strikes (more weight behind them), and harder to control in grappling. A 230-pound man who goes up against a 350-pound man faces the same problems (and the weight difference is clearly greater). But the amount by which the 350-pounder is actually stronger isn't going to be proportional to the difference with those smaller fighters. The huge guy is also likely to be considerably slower and to have less stamina. There are advantages and disadvantages in both cases, but it seems that in the 150/185 case, the advantages for the bigger man are very important factors and the advantages for the smaller man are either negligible or simply not enough to compensate. But in the 230/350 case, at least when both men are skilled, the bigger man doesn't have such a prominent advantage and might even be at a disadvantage. His "manhandling" was ineffective and he ultimately lost. Didn't work, though, did it? So, in other words, you're saying that such studies don't exist? Or do you think that a few cases of anecdotal evidence in which the outcome was the OPPOSITE of what it should have been to properly make such a case is seriously a substitute for serious studies? I agree, but what can you do? Add headgear and pads? Maybe a ball of some sort? Gaudy uniforms? If big fighters simply can't compete in U.S.-based organizations because of an "image" problem, well, I guess that's too bad for them. But it IS bad. Which was my point. If I remember correctly...
Don't confuse hypothetical with pointless. They're quite different. Wait a minute. Any fighter that big could be written off as a threat because of his size, not his skill. And I'd certainly consider being able to use size to your advantage as skill in the first place. But who's the arbiter of whether a fighter is actually skilled? You? There are some superheavyweights who have done well in MMA. None of them have been the best, but that's sort of my point (the smaller heavyweights have been able to beat them). But some of them do have winning records and have held their own. And I wouldn't yet put Choi in that group. His loss against Fedor is no mark against him, but he does still only have one win and it was a quick knockout against a guy who was 2-1. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you won't simply dismiss them all and name some superheavyweights who have shown talent in MMA. Mark Hunt (I think he lost enough weight to comfortably compete in the UFC if he wanted to, but in his PRIDE fights he was well over 265), Rob Broughton, Tom Erikson, Eric Pele, Ron Waterman, and Antonio Silva. That's all I can think of right now, but that's the gist of it. Not particularly dominant fighters. But they can definitely fight and they should be allowed to. I don't care if they have a high-profile campaign to legalize it in every single one of the 50 states. It has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I was criticizing the notion that a fighter shouldn't be allowed to fight at all because he's big and people are afraid of the reaction if something goes wrong. Not that it will matter in Choi's case anyway. He seems to be focusing on kickboxing full time last I heard and since that's going well for him, he might not even return to MMA at all.
