Leaving the Bujinkan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kikaku, Apr 27, 2006.

  1. KipPeR

    KipPeR New Member

    ...or because it's irresponsible.

    People don't learn Taijutsu from video clips on the internet. They learn it from properly qualified instructors in a safe environment. If you have an instructor that doesn't inspire you with what you are progressing toward ...find another that does! You see what you're progressing toward in the Dojo.

    As I said before ...showing training that shows serious techniques being performed at speed (from good timing) and apparent force (generated by good taijutsu, not strength) would be very irresponsible. What happens if a couple of impressionable youngsters see it and have a go. They will get hurt. They do not have the supplemental training in breakfalling, or any idea of when to stop applying the technique before serious damage is caused.

    I say it is a wholly heartening fact that these type of videos don't seem to exist, and a credit to the Bujinkan and it's instructors that this is the case.
     
  2. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Ok Taff you've been told before the clips are more than likely for demo purposes anyone can see it's not a "r34l" conflict or even a match so give it a rest.

    If you posted a clip with someone getting creamed in the ring you may have a point to argue from but you haven't. You don't know the context.




    Virus wasn’t happy with his training so he did IMO the right thing and went somewhere else. He had the guts to turn round after x amount of years and go ok I was wrong this isn’t for me I’ll start over. How many others here would be able to do that?

    This is a pointless debate. Bujinkan members have their views and non Bujinkan have different views and no one is going to change. Especially with all this stupid bloody bickering and one up man ship going on.

    So why don't we start talking?

    I'll throw the first out:

    1) How do you know your training works?
     
  3. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    we have no secrets to hide boy'o, and we are not a cult.

    i'd imagine there are more secrets to be kept in the changing/shower room of your ruggers club.

    at 21 there's nothing wrong with having a peek......


    'i am the o'only gay in this village'
     
  4. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned


    You're just an oz version of Greg aren't you? :D
     
  5. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter


    yup :D
     
  6. Taff

    Taff The Inevitable Hulk

    Superb post :D
     
  7. saru1968

    saru1968 New Member

    :)

    Look Taff I know what you are saying..

    But firstly from a learning point of view the clips allow us students to see a bigger picture of whats going on. If it was done faster and closer and shorter then how could i learn?

    I'm no easy uke for anyone and the higher the grade the more difficult i make it, i'm no sensei worshipper either but i do appreciate skill.

    Now i have had apparently simple things, body alignment changed that has prevented me from responding with any resonable attack.

    To understand anything its learnt slow at first i would imagine all the rolling round and hugging starts as basic slow explination of what you are trying to achieve.

    Different horse for different courses.

    But i would not have spent ten years training if i found no value to it.

    We could argue all the rolling round and hugging on the floor is pointless if the bad guy has a knife but whats the point, if you enjoy your training then good for you, i enjoy mine.

    :yeleyes:
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2006
  8. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned


    That's it I'm leaving! what's the place coming to when bloody Little Britain is bringing people together :eek: :cry:

    :D
     
  9. bencole

    bencole Valued Member

    Okay, now good. We're on the same page.

    Do you think that training with Ed, who clearly uses "dead training" according to your definition and the video clip that you are using as the basis of your claims, will result in an inability to fight?

    (I'll focus on that because that was one of your major beefs about training that was "not alive" in your original post ported from elsewhere.)

    The "relevance" is the aspiration of what you want to be and who you want to move like.

    More on that in a minute.

    I first need you to walk me through your beefs using a party/experience that we can share.... In this case, it will be Mr. Lomax. Otherwise, we will be talking past each other....

    -ben
     
  10. bomb_disneyland

    bomb_disneyland New Member

    *Cough* Van Donk *Cough*
     
  11. saru1968

    saru1968 New Member

    nah, thats home study

    :)
     
  12. bomb_disneyland

    bomb_disneyland New Member


    close though :D
     
  13. KipPeR

    KipPeR New Member

    Sorry ...should have clarified ...free clips :D

    I could now paste in some dictionary definition of "learn" so I can make some witty quip about the non-validity of its use in this case ...but can't be bothered. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Virus909

    Virus909 Valued Member

    I believe that training with Mr Lomax, or anyone else using dead patterns will not teach you to fight. I also believe if you train Greco wrestling with Randy Couture by having someone stand there and let you take them down with a single leg takedown, then repeat, You will not learn to take down a real opponent who fights back. Not on the mat, in the ring, or on the street. If I train with Royce Gracie and he has me do 1000 reps of a juji-gatame armbar on a person who lies on his back and takes it then I will never perfrom it on the mat, in a Vale Tudo match or anywhere. It doesn't matter who is watching you do it. If you train in dead patterns you cannot fight. If you train swimming by going through the motions in the air you will suck at swimming. If you train basketball by having someone stand in front of you and let you shoot over his head you will suck at basketball. If you train rugby by having people letting you to tackle them and only doing that, you will leave a real game in a stretcher crying for your mummy.

    By the way I've heard it all. "It leads up to the real thing", "It programs your body to react for the real thing", there is no real thing. You never see the "real thing". You don't have "real thing" seminars,classes, videos, demos, for black belts or 5th dans or 10th dans or any dans. All you see are excuses like "You can't show the real thing because little kids might imitate it and murder each other" Is that really the best excuse you can invent? I think "It's secret ninja stuff, can't show you" is more convincing. What you see on those videos are what you are doing in Japan with the Shihan, It's what you do in Taikias, daikomysais the lot.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2006
  15. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Ahhh, my long lost brother!!!
     
  16. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned


    er shouldn't that be "me brudder oi oi boom"
    sorry had a D&D epsiode there!
     
  17. Senban

    Senban Banned Banned

    Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going.

    Anyway, perhaps we should take a moment to read the following article, from someone who is involved in real combat as we speak. Taken from Bud Malmstrom's website here.

    Bold text=my emphasis.

     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2006
  18. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    So in reality what virus is looking for is a bit of MMA, he wants it to WORK not to work!!! :D

    I think the buj would be better off without you, if you can talk like that on bullshido then i hpoe the sun shines hard in sydney and burns your slaphead!!! :D
     
  19. xen

    xen insanity by design

    good question...

    but what is 'works'?

    winning comps?

    surviving street fights?

    avoiding conflict altogether?

    giving you confidence?

    passing the time?

    learning to move?

    getting home at the end of day in one piece?

    and if it 'works' for one person and not for another, why is it always the art in question which is critiqued and not the qualities of the individuals?

    some people suck, some people don't, people have off-days and days of brilliance, you can't judge any art on poorly defined, subjective metrics.

    what the bujinkan nay'sayers seem to want is some indication that the training methodology employed by the bujinkan produces martial artists that can fight...

    the original quote from virus909's post over on bull'do presents a view of an individuals experience during their time in the org.

    it wasn't an unreasonable post and it does raise questions (that are often argued about on here) which never get resolved before everyone polarises to their favoured view...

    reading the original thread on bull'do, i came accross this;

    is this something that the senior ranks in Japan had put forward in the past as the route dojo's should be taking? that the transition from the 'pure artistry of the movement' to 'd1r7y r34l s7r337 f1gh71ng' should be handled by the senior instructors of the local dojo's?

    it'd be interesting to hear any of the 'old hands' in the bujinkans thoughts on this idea...
     
  20. Virus909

    Virus909 Valued Member

    MWDandy. Testimony is not evidence.
     

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