Leaving the Bujinkan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kikaku, Apr 27, 2006.

  1. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    I'm Leaving the Bujinkan

    Not ME stoopid ! :D Here is a post which I discovered on another forum from a BBT 3rd Dan. I thought it raised some points, which can be discussed and dismissed. Read on and comment :

    "Just notified my instructor that I'm leaving the Bujinkan. I'm going to be a judo fighter instead. It's not without some feeling of sadness, as we were more like a group of friends that got together and trained than a dojo. Attendance hasn't been great lately and I think I've pretty much broke the dojo by leaving. He'll now have to get all new students.

    The primary reason I'm leaving is becuase the art is not alive, by that, I mean most techniqes are practiced against a static, unresistive partner often with an unrealistic attack. This may be ok for introducing a new technique, but not once in my six years, with four instructors was the issue of building up the resistance ever been raised. The idea just basicly doesn't exist for the most part. Like Matt Thornton says, I suspect they do dead technqiues and stay there becuase that's the only way they can get them to "work". Now, yes, there are technqiues within the Bujinkan, along with almost all traditional Japnese Jujitsu systems that work. Staples of wrestling and judo such as hip throws, shoulder throws, osoto gari are all there, but they are trained dead like everything else. How is one to know which are the high percentage techniques and which ones are for showing off at demos without the compass of aliveness? You can't know. This is a major flaw in not just the bujinkan but all traditional systems. The lack of aliveness taints the whole system. It leads to the retention of bad technique, incorrect technique and fanciful nonsense technique. It will do this becuase there is no filter system, no quality control and as such, no evolution of the art. I see alot of stuff that looks awsome in demos, looks great in the classroom, but watch how uke never moves his feet, or his limbs, he plays dead and goes with anything that is done to him. I've seen videos and demos of people get away with the most outrageous bullcrap becuase they do not have to face resistance. If they are confronted with this, they say "Well, it teaches flow" "It show what's possible" It's the old Chambered-punch-leads-up-to-the-right-cross syndrome ie: total crap. It's the very opposite of specificty. There's no point learning 50,000 variations and henka of a technique. The idea of being flexible in your application if a technique based on your circumstances is a great, and necesarry idea, and I think that's what they are trying to achieve but they have gone about it the wrong way. You can get that through sparring, rolling and live grappling.

    There are other problems too, in summary:

    The grading system is meaningless.

    Many people like to dress up in black gis and tabi, knock sticks together and throw rubber shuriken. Sorry but if your going to do that, at least do it live or it's nothing but martial LARPs.

    The is so much politiking and bitchfighting we make a political party look like a love-in.

    The senior instructors are not really that good either. They know a lot of neat looking tricks but none of them step up and show they can fight.

    People are told things like "You don't need strength and power" yeah you don't NEED it, but it's bloody good to have it and you should have it if you plan to be a good fighter.

    I could go on, and probably will but I need to use the little boy's room now."

    This particular statement, is also worth showing :

    One of the instructors in the area come back from Japan recently and said it's all gone downhill in Japan. He said the training is soft and weak there now. It's funny because I used to hear people say "Go to Japan, it's all different there" (ie; t3h r3al) but even in Japan they don't train in an alive manner. There are 15th dans than travel to Japan then just follow Hatsumi around and talk when they turn up to training. I hate the hero-worship of Hatsumi that goes on. I have a lot of respect for the guy, but the sun doesn't shine out of his ass. Some people believe everything he says and they follow him around licking his ass.

    There are definalty people around that bring thier own spiritual into thier dojos. Just in my area I can think of a guy who runs "warriorship" stuff and they strip down naked and get into a sweat lodge together after training. I wish I was joking. Even some of the more generally level headed guys make out like they are discovering the secrets of the univeerse by training in bujinkan. Just take a look at kutarki.org for evidence. Those who do other martial arts are not going to achieve the enlightenment that you will get by studying thier particular branches of Japanese Jujitsu. I mean, look at this from kutarki.org:
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2006
  2. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    lol.. for someone who's trained for 6 years he sure sounds like a tool...

    Nothing really new here... Just sounds like another one of those people that just doesnt "get it".

    I'm not a boojer, and I dont really "get" a lot of the stuff you guys do, and on some points I just outright disagree with some things, but to make a post like this, and then say these types of things is just ignorant and immature.

    1. Who was his teacher
    2. What was he learning
    3. Is his "hatsumi information" accurate or just some "well he said that he said that he said" bull plop?

    Just sounds like ninpo isnt for him. If he doesnt "get it" then thats all there is to it. The very first thing my very first instrutor said to me was "Ninpo isnt for everyone." I stick with taht to this day. If you dont agree with the training, and you dont agree with the methodologies, there are plenty of other places to go. Good bye!
  3. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    And your point being???, he`s disallusioned at HIS dojo and instructors, he has never been to Japan and trained with some of the Japanese Shihan he so quickly puts down, i`d like to see the response from Nagato Sensei if this guy went there and said the same things to him or some of the guys that actually do MMA(and there are lots) and use what Sensei teaches them to good effect.

    Yes there are people who go to Japan and suck up big time to Sensei, probably the same in any art, but everyone else INCLUDING Sensei sees this and it doesn`t bother him.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2006
  4. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    What I don't get is the fact that he's so naieve as to make one big sweeping generalizing stereotype. It's so arrogant when you look at it. He's basically saying since "I don't get it" then of course it must be ineffective as a whole. He's doesn't stop to analyze the instruction which he received, or the possible holes and flaws in his own training. He comes across, like a petulant child, which has spat it's dummy out, since the art hasn't worked for him. Priceless, I bet he's regards himself as a real hero in his eyes, along with all his other troll lackies. :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2006
  5. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Again.. I dont hold it against him. Like I said, Ninpo isnt for everyone. You cant make people understand things, or make people believe what you believe. In the end. its just one less person that'll cause drama (more so than there already is). .... GOOD BYE!
  6. Tengu6

    Tengu6 Valued Member

    I dont know what dojo he was training at but if that is how they trained then it's no wonder the dojo has emptied.

    The structure of the Bujinkan is set up for this exact reason, so those who need to be spoonfed, and those who need a herding mentality will simply go away.

    I hope he enjoys his alive Judo fighting.

    Markk Bush
  7. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    I find it entertaining that he talks about Judo being high and mighty when the exact same stuff is taught in most ninpo jujutsu, minus the sport-friendly safety.

  8. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    Well, looking through the thread, I see that he also states that the school he belonged to was floundering...so who knows. He's from Australia, I wonder what school he belonged to?

    There is another guy in that thread that aparently is a high-ranking ex-bujinkan that lives in Japan. He seems to have felt that people were not taking the art seriously.

    It's as if alot of these guys get very angry with what's happening at THEIR schools, and then just decide to hate the whole system I feel sorry for them in a way, because they worked long and hard for a style that just clearly wasn't for them. Instead of just thinking back of the positives they gleaned from the training (there had to be positives...no one traines till 3rd dan in a style with no positives) but instead linger on their negatives.

    At least they found what they were looking for.
    Good luck to them.
  9. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    I'm guessing that this is because he actually got to spar in Judo.
    As opposed to resistance free, one step sparring.
  10. Existence

    Existence Super Saiyajin :o

    wow it sounds like his uke really sucked
  11. 2E0WHN

    2E0WHN Homebrew for idiots

    A 3rd Dan in 6 years? Either he liked the ranks and the "status" that went along with it, or he just feels that it was all a waste of time, thesystem had no worth and decides to leave while spending enough time to gain a decent rank to brag about to his judo friends.

    "I was a 3rd Dan ninja, so I decided to do judo as it is more better".

    I wonder how long it will take before the judo instructor will say, "Sorry, you can not do that in here, not this, not that...".
  12. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    I'm assuming you are being sarcastic in that last sentence.... considering that being only mukyu in the genbukan has led me to far more than "resistance free, one step sparring". More like "ow... pain... please stop... i cant feel my trachea"
  13. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    I'm commenting on his HIS personal training, which he recieved and described in his "coming out of the closet" essay.
  14. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    As if the people on the Bullshido forum don't have enough to say already about MAP, this now ends up here. Who really cares? (and he has some valid points)
  15. LongShot

    LongShot New Member

    He sure has some valid points... I know if you guys were to go all out in a fight.. your stances would not be the same from the dojo... no matter how you try to say yes... the form of physics will change (especialy if you are initiating the battle)...

    I understand what he says in this post... bujinkan does not provide realism what so ever.. only the means to apply the technique.. When i trained with my friends in the dojo some people when throwing punches (which i am guilty) tended never to emitate a real punch, instead of punching to the back of the head they would go slightly to one side giving enough time for you to move even if you were asleep... I often had to ask sensei to show me personaly the painful way if it actualy would work'd.. as some students were somewhat reluctant to hurt or get hurt...not to mention that only maybe 3 out of 20 or so students finalised their moves... But ofcourse evry thing has an exception.. and this is no exception to the exception.. =OP

    I often think that for one to be very good in bujinkan one needs to have done/do another MA to get the feel for a bit more of reality, something that may allow sparring safelly yet full out... (i.e judo, karate,etc)
  16. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Yes but you have shot bujinkan in the foot with this one. Nice one, nothing like dragging Bullshido back on here, its his choice if he leaves, Bullshido is just a place to slag stuff off, should have stayed over there, there goes the neighbourhood.........
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2006
  17. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    People come people go. If you're not happy with the training what's the point in staying?
    I don't think it'll alter the perceptions of those in the organisation who have decided to work at it.

    At the end of the day you can only listen to the opinions and experiences of others so much, ultimately it’s your choice with what you do about your training and how you proceed.

    Whole life one choice!
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2006
  18. Virus909

    Virus909 Valued Member

    Thank you for taking an interest in my thread over on bullshido. Yes, I have left the bujinkan and I would like you to not dismiss my criticisms of the style out of hand. I could just as easily say "You don't get it" back, or I could say "You don't get it" to anyone that disagrees with me on anything. "You don't get it" is not a logically valid argument.

    My Hatsumi information comes from people who have trained with him.

    That is very true and I have decided after much thought to pursue this option. My reasons were outlined; Lack of resistive, timing and motion based training (Aliveness), use of unrealistic attacks such as the lunge punch and kicks in which the leg is left out to make the counterattack easy. All of these things, combine to create an art which includes many unrealistic, overly stylized and impractical techniques and a lack of physical and mental preparation for real grappling/striking situations. (As I encountered in MMA training) It is like practicing dry land swimming over a bench then jumping in the pool.

    I do not put down the Japanese shihan. I have a lot of respect for them as the original students of Hatsumi, who underwent very hard training which exceeds by far what most in the organisation are used to. They are however, not using alive methods to train students. When you say "do MMA" do you mean train in MMA gyms (that is, they use a combination of boxing,thai, wrestling,judo,BJJ) or do you mean compete in MMA events? I am aware of a few guys in the past who competed in shooto and I would be very interested to know if there are any people, who do only bujinkan that are sucessful in MMA style events. I am not aware of any such individuals neither would I think them very well prepared given the nature of bujinkan training methods.
    I am not particularly interested in traveling to Japan to debate points with Nagato. That does not make your opinion right, and if you state this as a veiled threat of violence (ie: he would beat me up for saying it) then this also does not make you right. I wouldn't go up to a gang of skinheads and tell them that fascism is a load of nonsense either, that doesn't mean that fascism must be correct.

    I trained with many individuals and none have suggested or promoted the idea of alive training and sparring.

    I have adressed "I don't get it" as a logical fallacy. You are also unable to make an assessment on how much analysis I have done on my training. You must also understand that even if I said that I've spent many years analyzing my training, you can always just come back and say "No you didn't" so such a game is pointless and illogical. The results of my analysis have been posted and I conclude the art to be poor in comparison to combative sports as far as learning to fight is concerned. I don't consider myself a hero, have done nothing heroic, don;t know what gave you that impression.

    And minus the progressive resistance and alive training methods. Judo is much more dangerous than taijutsu training, it has an injury rate comparable with ice hockey and other collision/contact sports. This is a necesarry consequence of getting close to an actual fight.

    Please tell me how many dojos use the type of training that I previously specified. What percentage are using methods similar to combat sports? Even if there is a pocket of the worlds where every training session is an MMA match, that is little use to me here. There were indeed positives but I do not believe they outweigh the negatives.

    I wouldn't say I made a big deal of it in class, but yes I guess you could say I had some pride in my rank. I still have my framed shodan certificate on my wall. I wouldn't say I'm ashamed of it, I don't really see what point you are trying to make with this statement. I haven't started my Judo yet, as the dojo is closed while public events are held there, but I have been training in BJJ and MMA for around 5 months and I have made no boast about my rank, nobody there even knows what rank or belt I have, some of them know I did some "ninjitsu" as they call it but it's not a an issue of discussion there.

    I hope this clarifies some issues at hand.
  19. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Last edited: Apr 27, 2006
  20. Senban

    Senban Banned Banned

    Longshot said:-
    Crap. Absolute crap. Can I say that here? If your Bujinkan training isn't realistic then it's not Bujinkan - find another instructor.

    Longshot said:-
    Exactly why I made my point above. Find another instructor.

    If there's no danger/threat in the attack, then you don't need to move properly in order to protect yourself and counter-attack. In fact I had this exact discussion with my students last night. Their attacks were a little limp last night so I encouraged them to do it properly, with correct intention, correct distancing etc. At first there were a few smacked gobs but then people started to respond properly again because now there was a danger to respond to.
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2006

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