Leave God out of the tsunami (from a non-believer)

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by nzric, Jan 6, 2005.

  1. NaughtyKnight

    NaughtyKnight Has yellow fever!

    Did you guys see in the news about the Muslim Elders that claim that Allah caused the tsunami. It is said that some random waves formed the words Allah in ancient Arabic. LOL, I find something like this so funny. If you stare at a wall long enough you can see anything. Im sure that if I stared at a brick wall long enough it might have "knightcommander is the best martial artist in the world" in ancient Pigmi. If this is true, why would "Allah" target the tsunami on 100 000 of his believers- Indonesia is the most populated Muslim country in the world.

    I think that God may of caused the tsunami, but remember, God sees all. For all we know, the tsunami was needed to cause or prevent something else. Perhaps without the tsunami 50 years from now the world would be destroyed. No one knows. Prove me wrong.
     
  2. bcbernam777

    bcbernam777 seeking the way

    actually the fact that Jesus Christ died is a matter of historical fact not only attested to by the bible but also by rabinical writings of the time and by Jewish historians of the time including Josephus. In addition it is also a historical fact that he had opportunity to avoid Jerusalum altogether even though he had told others of his imenent death in jerusalum even to the religous leaders of the day, he went delibaratly to jerusalum will the full knowledge that He would be put to death, so He died for something, I believe He died for the reason he said that he die for, both for you and me, and for the world.
     
  3. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Yes, I think there is quite a lot of evidence that Jesus did exist as a historical figure. Whether you believe that he was the messiah, or a prophet, or whatever else is a matter of personal faith or belief. It isn't really relevant to the thread, which is about God. It isn't a specifically Christian thread, as I see it. It could be about God as any religion sees Him/Her/It/Them.
     
  4. bcbernam777

    bcbernam777 seeking the way

    True i agree,

    it didn't come through on the post but I was responding to Siphus post to a previous post about Jesus dying and so feeling the pain of those who had died.

    You know bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people, go figure. I know one thing though, as someone who has shared his own percentage of loss, I dont blame God for my losses, the world itself can be a very cruel place, can God intervene, absolutly He can, why doesn't He. I dont know, however as a christian, I see certain reasons why such things can and do happen, and understand that it may be hard to explain them so I refrain, I will say this though, there are alot of agency's both in the name of God and not in the name of God working there blessed selves to the ground to help those who are left behind in this tragedy. That is a good thing, and something everyone can easily forget although most people in this thread havent. Also to those people who haven't seen God in a more favourable light through this, I would like to point out something, there are many many good things that happen in this world, can God be blamed for all the bad and not in the same argument be acknowledged for all the good.

    The disaster has happened, why? who cares, it has just happened, lets focus now on the task of doing what we can to help rebuild what was destroyed, and move on together with a greater sense of unity and brotherhood.

    My 2 cents worth
     
  5. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    bcbernam777,

    I wouldn't argue with any of that. Regardless of whether I share your beliefs or not, I think that was a good post with some really good points. Sorry if I misunderstood were you were coming from before.
     
  6. KickChick

    KickChick Valued Member


    Yes my mistake referring to "Allah" ... I mean't to shift from Hindu belief to Muslim belief but forgot to make reference before I started this sentence ,,,
    And you are correct that it is not a test of faith for them (Muslims) as they are raised to place unwavering trust that "Allah" is in control.

    A native of Calcutta and a retired Hindu scholar was explaining Hindu belief and perhaps I understood incorrectly or perhaps there are various 'personal' beliefs in that religion as there are in the Christian faiths. (??)
     
  7. Kosh

    Kosh New Member

    Alot of people here are trying to present whats happened in terms of faith 'have faith god has a plan'. I have no problems with that, your beliefs are your own.

    There is a flaw in this logic..in order to have faith you have to first admit it was gods doing. As such you have to admit god did something evil. Afterall, how can you have faith in gods actions being justified (regarding the tsunami) if nature is beyond his control and arent his actions? [the argument that god set nature up and doesnt control it is a contridiction in terms and to be true implies god has relinquished control of nature...ie relinquished godhood...which again is a contridiction in terms]
     
  8. Kosh

    Kosh New Member


    History shows someone called Jesus died on a cross and that he had followers, it doesnt however show that the son of god existed. Saying that believing god exists automatically means you have to believe jesus was the son of god is false logic, so is the logic that jesus really existed therefor god exists.
     
  9. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I don't think that the argument is illogical. I don't necessarily think it is correct, because it depends upon a number of things we cannot know, like whether God exists, but from a purely theoretical point of view it is not illogical.

    Let's say that God created the world and created nature, with all its powers of destruction as well as its support for all forms of life on this earth. He then leaves it to function without interference. Events such as a tsunami aren't then acts of God as such, because he didn't make a decision that we're going to have an earthquake at such-and-such a time and place which will cause a tsunami. It just happened. Just like volcanoes erupt, hurricanes blow, and the sun sets every night. No act of God required, because the system is self-sustaining.

    The phrase 'act of God' is just an insurance term.
     
  10. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    So in other words:

    1. Jesus could have existed, but not been the 'son' of God.

    2. Other religions believe in God so God could exist even if Jesus wasn't the 'son' of God, or if he didn't really exist at all.
     
  11. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    LOL, I stayed in India a dozen times and worked with their academics for over 10 years (recruiting students for UK universities, school linking etc) and every explanation I had of their beliefs was different!! There seems to be a sort of 'orthodox' Hindu set of beliefs you get from the books - and then there's the reality that makes the religion so beautiful - anyone can make up their own rules and worship however they wish, including local deities as well as those which have grown from the vedas. It's a bit like the Hindu 'vegetarian' I met who ate beef once a month - I'm still trying to get my head round that one!

    Their belief in karma, IMHO, is what most helps even the poorest street beggar to smile and, in times of adversity, allows those affected to move on. It seems to me to be less rigid than Buddhist schools of thought and certainly less so than Jainism, which I encountered a lot in Rajasthan.

    Your friend may be a devotee of Kali if he is from Calcutta (Kalicutta), or have a dozen other deities influencing his thinking, as well as his academic studies. For me, I stopped asking too many questions and just wallowed in the culture while I could. Love the place. :)
     
  12. Infrazael

    Infrazael Banned Banned

    The Christian God CANNOT be omnipotent and omniscient simultaneously. Being omnipotent means he is ALL-powerful, including the power to change his own future, destiny, or whatever comes next. Being omniscient means he KNOWs what his future will be, out of an infinite number of possibilities. Therefore, God will know what his TRUE future will be. This is illogical as he HAS the power to change his future, but then he DOESN'T because if he DOES, then he DOESN'T really know what his future is, leaving God trapped within an infinite paradox that He cannot escape.

    Also, with the issue of free will. Free will can ONLY BE if ONE IS FREE TO REFRAIN from doing something. If God, being Omniscient and KNOWS EVERYTHING we will do the next minute, then it's IMPOSSIBLE to refrain from doing it. How can you REFRAIN from doing something that is already set in place? Impossible.

    Therefore, according to Christian theology, free will CANNOT (NOT does not) exist. With their theology, all you are doing is going through PREDETERMINED motions that already have SET CONCLUSIONS.
     
  13. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Ok.. so maybe Jesus existed... So? Do you know how many "messiahs" there were? How many "healed people by touching them" , "walked on water" amongst other things? If those were all miracles, witnessed by other people, where are their stories? Were they conviently left out? I dunno. Historically a guy named jesus existed, maybe. What about the jew slaves that roamed the desert for 40 years? (isnt that right? i think it was 40 i dont remember) Not onlyis there no archaelogical or historical evidence that Moses even existed, there is no evidence that ANYONE was in the desert AT ALL! You would think that hundreds (thousands?) of jews roaming around half their lives would leave something behind...

    Thats just one example, just because a guy named jesus existed, doesnt mean he was the son of god. Hundreds, if not thousands of people died on crosses, "messiahs" just like jesus...
     
  14. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    First of all, there's really no paradox here, and second of all, even if there were, I don't think it would actually be a problem, since God should be able to overcome all paradoxes, or any set of logic which is a part of this universe.

    But like I said before, it's not actually a paradox, and I think I've already posted an explanation of why this isn't a paradox to this board, and I don't feel like doing it again.

    Same goes for your other paragraphs.

    Also, as I believe I've explained before, without religion (i.e. without some sort of religion actually being correct), there can be no free will, anyway.
     
  15. Chruffin

    Chruffin Valued Member

    Guys, this argument's already been addressed.

    God's omnipotence and omniscience can just as well be seen as potential as they can be seen as realised. That God *can* know the future if he so wishes does not directly conclude that he does so wish. Thus, just as Shroedinger's Cat is both alive and dead until someone checks, so too are our choices free until God checks. If he doesn't check we remain free.

    That God gave us free will could just as easily be God's choice to not look into the future as it could be some divine gift. Furthermore, if you're accepting God's omnipotence (which you are if you want to disprove free will) then you have to accept that he is *all powerful* and thus logic is irrelevant in this problem, that we cannot comprehend where the cat is both alive and dead doesn't really matter, does it?
     
  16. bcbernam777

    bcbernam777 seeking the way

    no problem
     
  17. bcbernam777

    bcbernam777 seeking the way

    that not what I said in that or any other post my friend, look this thread has a specific flavour so if you want to debatye with me I dont have a problem with that, we will just choose a differetn thread and hammer it out. Is that cool? :)

    Posted with respect
     
  18. bcbernam777

    bcbernam777 seeking the way

    Again as I said to Kosh Siphus another thread I will be happy to debate.

    :)
     
  19. Kosh

    Kosh New Member

    It wasnt just a response to you. Someone said that since my arguement involves god then i must believe that god exists (which isnt actually true i -could just be argueing 'supposing that..'). But then they critisised my arguement by saying that logically i have to admit jesus existed and that he was the son of god. Theres no logic in that what-so-ever.
     

Share This Page