Leave God out of the tsunami (from a non-believer)

i think your forgetting the title of this thread... "Leave god out of the tsunami" Arguing that God should be included in talking about the tsunami by using God as a reference is circular logic. Like saying God is real because God said so. Thats why i said his post contributed nothing. I have nothing against his beliefs, it just didnt work in this thread.

 

Maybe it seemed that way, its hard to explain yourself with words, esp with just text...

At least we didnt start flaming each other. There should be more civilized ends to arguments like this one. A+ for maturity.

 

You are either admitting that you are evil yourself, or you are a damn hypocrite. And tell me exactly how much should "good men" do in order to stop evil? Did you give ALL your money to the fund? No? Well then you just killed many people, my friend. You are evil.

PL

 

How do you know? Besides that implies god didnt want it to happen but let it happen anyway...or had no choice. God let them die to test the faith of the survivers? All men are created equal...cept the ones created to die as a test for the others.

There is a very simple explaination...god has nothing to do with right and wrong, good or bad. Afterall, how can god understand what it is to die?

 

Because he watched his son die. for us.

 

this thread has gone so downhill....

how do u know that? you dont. the bible says so, and you believe it. That doesnt mean its true.

 

Siphus, religion isn't about knowing something, it's about believing it and having faith in it. The moment you categorically KNOW something there ceases to be *any* point in holding it as a religion, it becomes a science.

In asking that question you presuppose that God exists. In that case you have no argument against the belief that Jesus was both the son of God and the incarnation of God on Earth. In which case he would understand what it is to die. Furthermore, as an omniscient being he would also by definition know and understand the same thing.

Kosh, you know your argument is founded on a pile of dung here, right? The fact is that Good and Evil are both the products of free will. A Tsunami isn't evil at all, it's just a disaster. If you're prepared to accept the existence of God (which your argument is as you're holding him responsible for it) then you can't deny an afterlife - Thus how do you know those people haven't gone to some form of Heaven?

Furthermore, Poop-Loops is absolutely right. Have you given up all your wealth to the point of relative physical worth? Hell, have you even given them up to the point of relative moral worth? No, you haven't. According to your own argument you're evil.

 

I missed something out of the post 'Its not an act of human free will, noone human made it happen...god either...

God was responsible for the tsunami (this is implied by the definition of god). The will of God. Im not argueing about the existense of god (though i do believe god exists).

You said they may have gone to a better place...did they use their free will to chose to go to this better place? My arguement is that by the definition of god, it is directly responsible for the deaths of many people...yet the only arguement to reconcile this with christianity is to say 'im sure its ok...just have faith'.

The funniest comment on the subject was a response from some high ranking christian something or other, who said 'I dont believe that god pulls the strings to make things like this happen' taken from bbc.co.uk news (its gone now i couldnt find it)

Which to me is frankly laughable.

youve also touched on another point i was going to make, murder is the most evil act, yet you have just pointed out a circumstance in which you believe it isnt evil (ie they go to a better place). If murder can so easily nullified once you start talking about the non-material and timelessness...you soon see that the idea of good and evil is limited to humans.

This thread is about leaving god out of the tsunami...god is supposed to be a big part of many believers lives...then something like this happens and it doesnt fit into our image of god...lets leave it out.

As for me being evil, im a human so im apparently evil by definition. But you seem to be trying to out flank me since this has nothing to do with this thread...and seems like a personal attack.

[edit] i just found waht pooploop said...that wasnt what i was trying to say...Letting evil happen is the same as making it happen - people should do everything in their power to stop evil? but god has infinite power...so logically...what i was saying is that if god lets something happen its the same thing as him making it happen.

 

It is never God's will to inflict suffering upon people...

It gives us the opportunity to reach out to God to experience his comfort, help and strength in the middle of this disaster. It gives those with the faith an opportunity for it to work for us. And it proves IMO that God is there with us.

I believe God is in the doctors who rushed to calm and heal the frightened. God is in the workers who build shelters and feed the homeless.

And God is in everyone who reads about the disaster and will respond to various charitable organizations that help.

When God set the world in motion, he created nature, and nature works according to its own laws....taking its own course making no moral judgements on its victims.

It's unfortunate that it's situations such as this that brings the world's people together.... our pain brings us closer to God.

The Hindu understanding of the events hinges on karma.

Karma in this case is not to be understood as a reward or punishment for the actions of the victims. A group disaster like this is understood by them to be a "group karma" meaning people overall .... people worldwide universally have acted irresponsibly. Their faith is that somehow this disaster will eventually lead to some sort of wisdom for humanity in general. They don't question (Allah's) ways but ask for mercy on those who died so they be placed in a better life and have mercy on those still living and affected by the disaster.
The death of young innocents is eased in their belief of rebirth ... in their next birth they may be in a better position in a sense they would have more opprtunities for wisdom because one looks at things in a different way when one has suffered.

 

But he did. So whos will was it? If it wasnt gods then are you saying it was outside of his control? This is a contradiction of the both the logical meaning of the word god and goes against the christian view of god because he is all powerful. But apparently he has no power over people because we have free will and now is supposed to have no power over nature either...so where does its so called omnipotence lie?

Again it seems like its very hard to reconcile good and evil directly with gods actions which again seems to imply the simple fact the good and evil arent applicable to god.

 

Kosh,

I think all the points you raise were covered pretty comprehensively earlier in this thread. You seem to be going over the same ground again.

May I suggest that you read the first few pages of the thread?

Regards.

 

He has the choice to control us and it. The flooding of the world was by his hand in biblical times, as was the scattering of the people. He CHOOSES not to directly control us, but he COULD.

 

Im sorry if a repeat myself but it seems like everything comes back to that one central arguement...plus i feal like im defending my position.

Again this is another way of say 'he let people die'

 

Kosh,

My understanding of the 'religous' argument is that God created the world and all in it, including mankind and nature. Leaving aside Biblical miracles etc, I think all the major religions would see God as being all-powerful, but that He does not interfere either with nature or with mankind - He lets events take their course in accordance with the laws of nature which He created. We make the best of it, just like all the other creatures on this earth. If God intervened every time we asked Him to then the world would be a very different place. And we wouldn't have free will in the truest sense of it, because we could always fall back on God to bail us out when things got a bit tough.

 

Its an argument that cannot be solved, as none of us can ring him up and ask him, nor would we comprehend his answer even if we got it.

And we too feel like we are defending our position.

Can we REALLY expect to come to a conclusion?

 

Sorry, but I think you are somewhat wide of the mark here. Many of the victims are Buddhists, who would share a Hindu concept of karma but not the belief in the many Hindu deities. However, neither Hindus nor Buddhists would refer to Allah - that's Moslems. Whilst Hindus and Buddhists have deities they also accept that much of the visualisation and ritual connected with them is directed towards our internal mind and its improvement rather than worship of an almighty god.

The karmic effect which led to the deaths of the victims would have been laid in past lives, hence there is no personal connection with the individuals who died, only with the part of their minds which they received from previous lives, which carris their karmic effect from life to life.

If their actions in this life are good them a good rebirth will result, if not then the fact that they died in this tsunami event has no bearing. A person who commits bad acts will have a bad rebirth in the next life - death by tsunami does not relieve them of this karma. It's not like Crhsitianity with some concept of 'purging sins'. Karma ripens, we suffer, and in Buddhism we work to avoid it in future lives, not only for ourselves, but for others.

To quote Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (tibetan master):
'Usually we assume that bad experiences arise only in dependence upon the conditions of this present life. Since we cannot account for many of them in these terms, we often feel that they are inexplicable and undeserved, and that there is no justice in the world. In reality, however, most of our experiences in this life are caused by actions we committed in past lives.'

and on the tunami in particular, he teaches:
'suffering is the result of bad karma ripening and insufficient merit.'

It might seem harsh, but that is the karmic explanation of why some died and others did not. They did not deserve to die because of anything they had done, but becaue of actions in previous lives of which they would have no knowledge.

Makes more sense to me than a God figure about which it is illogical to conclude that he is there for comfort and to be with those who suffer, yet at the same time is the creator and omnipotent in all respects. If God is any of the things claimed for him he must also have caused or permitted all the wars and natural disasters. Buddhism passes the test of logic as well as faith. IMHO monotheistic Christianity and Islam do not.

 

Let me give you an example. You have a kid. 2 year old. REALLY loves the stove. Especially when it's fiery hot. Every day when you cook you make sure he doesn't touch the stove, you don't want him to get hurt. But every day he just screams louder and louder than he wants to touch it. So, you finally let him touch it so he can shut the hell up. He cries, of course. So what do you do? You comfort him. Kinda like the story with Apollo and his son. It was his birthday, so he asked Pappy for ANYTHING. Apollo agreed, and he said he wanted to ride his chariot. Apollo was hesitant, but he said anything, so he let him do it, giving him pointers to drive it right. He didn't follow them, ended up burning the country side and such, so people prayed to Zeus and Zeus layed the smackdown on him. Did Apollo want to do it? Did you want your kid to touch the stove? Sometimes people have to learn for themselves. OBVIOUSLY there is no visible connection to a tsunami, but that's where the whole "faith" part comes in.

PL

 

Like I've said in other posts, you believe what you are told (the bible, church etc). Have you studied just as much of christianity as u have of buddism? taoism? Islam? Everything else? No, you havent. (assuming)

So how can you even start to argue? How can you say green is better than blue, when your color blind? How can you say ireland is better than japan when you've never been there?

I'm not saying your wrong. Maybe i'l find out one day christianity is right, or maybe one day i'll find out that buddism is right, i dont know. AND NEITHER DO YOU.

Having faith in something without knowing all sides of the stories is idiotic to me, and i feel sorry for people who are brainwashed into denying free thought.