Tartovski, I'm not actually a Lau Gar practitioner. I've just practiced Wing Chun for about 3-3.5 years. It's just that as another Southern Chinese system there seem to be some overlaps in basic (isolated) movements and techniques. Probably the energies, some principles and strategies differ but when you actually use it they probably look quite similar. Our school (which teaches WCK and 7 Star Praying Mantis) used to cross-spar until the classes were split (different times). Skills development was very different, but when we sparred there were a lot of similarities; of course there were differences too! In terms of curriculum, I've learnt the 1st and 2nd empty hand forms, our 1st butterfly knife form and have started the strength training exercises for the pole form. Single and double sticking hands. The usual ... always go back to basics ... get the fundamentals right.
It seems Oldman is either unwilling or unable to defend his fatuous comments about the differences in beginner/senior styles. Either way the result is the same, we have to assume they are indefensible, meaningless, or trolling. Pity, I was hoping to learn something. Clearly not. CFT: cheers for that. Can I ask what strength training you do for polework? I've just started doing staff defense having not done it for several months, and I'd forgotten how heavy the damn thing feels after awhile! Any tips would be useful... feel free to pm me if you don't want to further disrail this thread.
Tartovski, I'm not sure whether it would carry through well into Lau Gar staff forms, but I think it would. I'll describe what I do, but you would probably take up a stance that looks more like the Hung Gar sei ping ma (4 level horse stance, i.e. feet shoulder distance, pointed forward, bend knees so thighs are parallel; maybe a less deep stance than that - you want to maintain stability). Take one 9 foot solid wood pole (or whatever length you use). Take up the basic [Wing Chun] stance. Point pole away from you, placing the tip of the pole on the ground and grasp the butt end of the pole with right hand, place left hand in front of right, then move right in front of left. So basically holding the pole away from you, tip down, right hand in front of left with a bit of the butt end sticking out towards your chest. Next raise the tip of the pole up until about chest/throat height, locking your arms out in front of you, hands about abdomen level. So if you look side on: your shoulders down to your hands, hands up to tip of the pole forms a "V" shape (not necessarily symmetical of course). Now the hard bit, keeping your elbows down, raise your hands up so that the tip stays roughly stationary and the pole becomes horizontal. Your hands will have to twist around the pole to allow this action. Do this bit quick so you can return to the "hands down" position. The elbows stay roughly in place which adheres to the Wing Chun "immoveable elbow" theory. Repeat as many times as you can. For the grading at my school, we need to do 30 reps, then 60 for the next grade up. This exercise will strengthen/develop your biceps, forearms, grip strength, thighs, waist. You can also work the "other side of the body" by having the left hand in front of the right. It is very easy to "rise" out of your stance when you lift the pole into the horizontal position; you want to sit in the horse so this is also a stance training exercise. The other point of the exercise is that you are also learning to put your energy into the tip of the pole. Give it a try and see if it is any benefit to your general pole practice. Would like to get some feedback on the results. When I first started I could do 2, then after about a week 5. After 2 weeks I could do 10. I'm up to about 30 now, but need to improve the quality after 20. You can try it with a 6ft pole to begin with to get used to the action, or even a broom (brush end is the tip).
Hmmm, that doesn't sound so hard reading it... I bet it's a hell of lot different actually doing it though!! Sounds like a good thing for me to practise actually, I'm taking a week of any leg work due to a bum kneee, so this should keep me entertained. One thing, can you tell me what the classic WC stance is? Just link to a pic might be easiest. Though, I could do it in Horse Riding Stance as you suggest.
Oh, you know, the pigeon-toed (toes inward) stance that everyone laughs at. It feels like the pole weighs a ton. It is a lot easier with a 6ft staff. Don't know how long the one Lau Gar uses. First pic on this page: http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_root.html A bit too side on to fully see the "toes in" aspect, but this is a good article in general for testing your structure. Front on picture (1st one): http://www.springtimesong.com/wcforms.htm
oh cool. We do that stance for "Jurn Sau" (our form based on your first form) so I do know what you mean after all!
Ah right, that stance. We do that in our "Jurn Sao" form (heavily based on your first form) so I know the one you mean.
It is your rants and raves that I deplore. You can stand on your soap box as much as you like. If you think they are indefensible meaningless that is your view. I dont have to write a procès-verbaux to fuel your rants. I know what I can do and very happy what I can do and the knowledge that I have it is you left wanting not me. If you want to be a bb martial artist then go ahead but it is not my job to teach you and if you are that narcissistic enough not to ask your instructor well that says it all. I am not here to argue with you and be bullied your rants. Learn how to ask things in a nice way then you might get some response like I said train well in any style you do
You used to an instructor, then you took a break for about 12 years? I have no idea why you didn't want to say so: I think it would strengthen your claims to knowledge about the Lau Gar style. But: Yet again, you make claims, and yet again, you fail to back them up. IF I am "left wanting"? what is it I am left wanting? You have to define it, or it is meaningless. Surely you appreciate this logic? The must agree the attitude of "you are missing something, but i'm not going to tell you what" is unhelpful at best, and meaningless to furthering a discussion - It's not "My view" the idea of burden of evidence is widely respected logically position. YOU make the claim, YOU provide the evidence. You claim that begginers styles and seniors styles (within the BKFA) are different. But you refuse to say why: this makes your claim worthless to the discussion. It's like debating the existence of God with someone who says "God exists, because he does!" it's bad logic, and entirely unhelpful to furthering the debate. IF they are different, HOW are they different? what is a BB martial artist?? As for being narcissistic, i think not. I have trained for about 14yrs now. I am happy in my level of ability and my knowledge is enough to say that, on the evidence of the subject at hand: there is no significant difference between the way I (and other senior grades I have seen) do basic techniques compared to beginners. Others on this forum agree. If you have new evidence about this, or another comment to make, or wish to persuade us that we are wrong, and there are differences - then please do so. Bullied? since when was asking someone to back up their position bullying? Is it bullying when I scientist asks a homeopath to back up their claims? Again: making a throw away comment, and not backing it up, is totally unhelpful to this debate, As several other people have agreed.
Tartovski Can I interject here. How do you do your basic walking and punching technique. I can you explain exactly what you do ie foot positioning weight transfer body postioning where your hands are held etc. And maybe I can help
Pay attention - I do mine the same as the beginners, just more like a hard-ass ninja mofo. It's not every little difference I'm interested in (that would take forever to explain) but the SIGNIFICANT differences as alluded to by OldMan. Yes, describing them might not be the easiest thing in the world - but these forums are full of people doing just that. CFT's explanation of the staff exercise is a good example.
I forgot about Jorn Sau. I've only ever seen one video of it (Su Lin's teacher). At the time I thought there were some similarities to the Wing Chun 1st form. I forgot that the stance was the pigeon-toed one (or goat-clamping stance). Since we want to keep things technical I'd like to throw the question out to the Lau Gar people who check in to this thread. What qualities are trained in Jorn Sau? I'll share some of the things that a Wing Chun person gets out of practicing the 1st form: 1) Trains the stance, the "source" of your power 2) Trains the "immoveable elbow" concept (elbows down, everything driven from the elbow) 3) Trains protection of the centreline 4) Trains forward energy 5) If done with the correct emphasis on energy expression, will strengthen your tendons, develop suporting muscles in certain areas (e.g. around the knees, elbows, forearms, shoulders) There's more, but would probably be waffling. These are the ones I think are most apparent (to my level of knowledge).
I wouldnt bother Fujau From that response you are wasting your energy he has a chip on his shoulder about something Just let it be You can pm me on the walks if you want to
who should pm you Oldman? him or me? CFT: Pretty much very similar concepts from my clubs POV. Hit the nail on the head there I think. Though the second bit of our form (the more mobile bit) is different. obviously.
Yeah, movement comes in the second form. Taking what is in the 1st form and putting it into motion - turning and stepping. It is more about making contact, bridging, and what to do when there is contact. Some locking comes out of it, but where chin-na really comes out is from the pole form (the opponent's arm is the pole).
Dear Mr Oldman Learn how to ask things in a nice way then you might get some response Dear Mr Oldman, Please can you inform us of the variations between bkfa and non bkfa beginners/senior variations? In fairness to Tartovski you havent actually answered any of the questions that have been asked at all. Thanks
Is this a BKFA club: http://www.se-martialarts.co.uk/kf-syllabus.htm ? They do 10 knife defenses - Is that the standard for the BKFA now?
