Lau Gar\ Hung Gar\ Wing Chun\ Tsun Cha??

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Shou Tu, Jun 12, 2004.

  1. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    Are there really any Differences?? This includes any off Shootes,

    Please Explain!
  2. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    Differences in what? In how they do techniques? Could you be more specific please :)
  3. dustIn credible

    dustIn credible Valued Member

    Lau Gar Kuen is a form of boxing practiced at Kuei Ling Temple in west China. Lau Gar uses Chi Sau (much like Wing Chun's Chi Sao "sticky hands"). Chi Sau means "push hands". Hung Gar is also a boxing style, differences I dont think Hung Gar has a chi sau but i could be wrong. I believe they are both termed "hard" styles.

    Wing Chun is a soft style characterized by footwork, hand strikes, and reflexes. It is in fighting with strikes on the centerline of the body and kicks limited to below the waist. WC is a simple style to learn (only 3 forms, sil lum tao (little idea), Chum Kue (seeking bridge) and Bil Ji (dart fingers), and mook jong or wooden dummy forms). If you can believe it I'm learning WC from videos and sparring with friends, but Im one of those rare people that believe you can actually learn on your own and dont need someone to hold my hand.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2004
  4. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    Blue/Pig/Yawning - are there really any Differences?? This includes any off Shootes,

  5. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    The 'Gar' or 'Ga' bit means family. So family style of 'Hung, family style of 'lau' etc.

    Wing Chun is a southern CMA with at least 12 different lineages that I've come across, the most common being descended from Yip Man.

    Tsun Cha?

    I'd need to look into that one.
  6. Sandy

    Sandy Valued Member

    You're more knowledgable than me about kung fu styles. However, if you excuse the pedantry, isn't wing chun a hard style too?

    Incidentally, how come you're only learning it from video and sparring with friends? Is there no instructor near you? (I've only recently converted to MA video watching and have found it an extremely helpful supplement, but I personally need proper instruction too.)
  7. dustIn credible

    dustIn credible Valued Member

    I guess you could call WC a hard style, but hard styles usually lack fluidity of motion which WC has. Your right there is no instructors in my area plus i have college and a job so i need weekend classes which i dont know of any WC instructors that teach on weekends for less than $50 an hour. I dont have that kind of money at the moment.
  8. TyrX

    TyrX Unregistered Non-User

    As far as I know about the Wing CHun Hard vs. Soft, is that it is soft because it doesn' to put this...directly interfere with anothers motion, that we stay soft but not yielding. If someone goes to grab our hand and pull us we don't try to fight the pull, instead we go with it and use their strength to strike them with a shoulder.
  9. Sandy

    Sandy Valued Member

    TyrX - ah ha, thanks for explaining. This would make several other styles, e.g. JKD, soft too, but then these things are never black and white.
  10. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    Never practiced Lau Gar or Tsun Cha.

    Hung Gar is derived from the original 170 movements, five animals of the Shaolin temples. Emphasizing the strength and aggressiveness of the tiger tempered with the graceful evasiveness of the crane. It more resembles Kenpo in philosophy then Wing Chun (e.g. force is met with force or, is not met at all, rather then being re-directed). Although, they both use the wooden man in training.

    I wonder if Tsun Cha is a blend of Cha family (Northern boxing) and Ving Tsun (Wing Chun). Which seems an odd pair, but hey, why not. I'm a Chang Chuan student with a Chunner for a sparring coach so... *shrug*:D
  11. Shou Tu

    Shou Tu New Member

    Tsun Cha is not what i meant now that I look at it i believe i meant to type Ving Tsun and got the Ving Tsun and Wing Chun mixed up and combined them. Im not familiar with any of the spellings of traditional styles especially since we dont have many that practice them here in the traditional sense.

  12. wcrevdonner

    wcrevdonner Valued Member

    Ooooh, questions...

    There is a dummy in Hung Gar? I thought it was WC that had the dummy. If it does, what does it use it for?

    Chi sao is in Lau gar? Andy, could you confirm...I've never heard that mentioned before, and if it was so, Im sure you'd see competitions between the two arts...

    I second Tryx on his info - WC is a hard and soft style. the hard is mainly the strikes, but also in some of the techniques, (a particular type of jum, Gaan sao inside gate, bic sao could also be interpreted as hard.)
    However, we'd rather not be pulled at all than have to react to being pulled! (thats not to say we wouldn't, but thats the preference.)

    A WC persons hands should be like trying to grab an octopuses tentacles.

    Although I've never tried wrestling an octopus, so I don't really know what thats like...:D

    Katsu, whose videos are you using? And are you touching hands with any WC people? (that would definitely help you)
  13. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Yup, I'm afraid someone in Lau Gar thought it would be a good idea to have Competitive Chi Sao. Missing the whole point by a galaxy or so, but there you go.

    Chi Sao practice varies from school to school in Lau Gar. ;)
  14. dustIn credible

    dustIn credible Valued Member

    The Chi Sau (push hands) in Hung Gar and Lau Gar is more like the Tai Chi version than the WC Chi Sao.
  15. CFT

    CFT Valued Member

    "chi sau" means sticking hands in the Cantonese dialect of Chinese. Pushing hands would be pronounced "tui sau".

    I think the wooden dummy is common to a lot of Southern Chinese martial arts systems. It is found in Choy Li Fut as well as Hung Gar, but the design is different to the one used by Wing Chun ... I don't think they have the extruding leg.

    A comment about fluidity in Wing Chun ... we do train for this attribute in WC, but it is not unique to WC. It should be and is exhibited by all martial arts, whether you classify them as hard or soft styles.
  16. dustIn credible

    dustIn credible Valued Member

    I have a question. Why is it called Chi Sao sticky arms and not Dong Sao which is used more for sticky?
  17. wcrevdonner

    wcrevdonner Valued Member

    Thats a gem there ,no mistake cft, and can be summed up in one word - TIMING!!! Which comes from, EXPERIENCE!!! Two keywords which a lot of the younger(!) generation of MAists tend to overlook...

    EDIT: KJJ - just saw your comment; I think its to do with the flow of energy rather than a physical stickiness.

    When I mentioned chi sao to my students, I remember saying 'Oh the best part of training is sticky hands! Blah blah blah...' one of them started creasing up; in five years it had never occured to me the alternate meaning...:D
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2004
  18. CFT

    CFT Valued Member

    I'm afraid I don't fully understand your question.

    Assuming you are using Cantonese terms, "chi" means "to stick to" in this context. In combat, WC aims to feel the opponents intent through their arms when there is contact. This sensitivity is trained through chi sau.

    However, this does not mean that we want to maintain contact this at all times in combat ... we want to avoid chasing hands syndrome.

    This is summarised in a WC saying: Loi Lau Hoi Sung; Lut Sau Tsik Chung. Detain what comes, escort what leaves; upon loss of contact strike ahead.
  19. CFT

    CFT Valued Member

    From a developmental and technical viewpoint then yes there are real differences.

    Difference in stances, forms, weapons. But the combat philosophies are arguably the same, i.e. short range (in-fighting). More striking from the upper body, kick directed below the waist (unless I am mistaken).

    I haven't practiced Lau Gar or Hung Gar, but the articles I've read about the attributes gained from the practice: relaxation, power, sensitivity are all common to Wing Chun. In fact, common to so-called internal arts as well.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2004
  20. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    *Side Note.

    The Lau Gar most commonly referred to on MAP is the UK Lau Gar.
    There's not too much evidence of any other Lau Gar system in practice.

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