<<<Today it is almost impossible to find a teacher in China who teaches only Lau Gar, as the sets of Lau Gar were incorporated long ago into the Hung Gar syllabus>>> The above quote is from a history of Lau Gar. Why do the Lau Gar forms practised by Hung Gar practicioners bear little or no resemblence to the Lau Gar forms practised by UK Lau Gar practicioners?
There seem to be three Lau Gar's from what I've dredged up so far Colin. The UK one, the three forms incorporated into Hung Gar with 'Lau Gar' titles, and the one still practiced in China which is apparently of five families origin. I'd rather actual data came from someone else, if you want some interesting links, you may have them by pm! Niel Stewart also has a wealth of material on this, and did pose some questions to Master Yau via his Sifu I believe. The Scottish Lau Gar contingent actually teaches the Hung Gar forms you mention alongside the standard UK ones, and the difference between the two is obvious. I'll be watching this thread for official propoganda (read bulldung)!
Thanks for a very thoughtful answer, Andy. i know this topic is a bit of a hackle-raiser in the LG fraternity. Maybe we can continue this off forum? thanks PS - If anyone has anything to add on this feel free
Are there any books with the lau gar forms in it. Iam asking because Iam going back to my old club next week. Ive not been for a couple of years since I trained in my current style and would like a refresher. Also, how do u know ur club is affiliated with the correct body and not just using the Lau gar name.
John...there's a syllabus book that floats about. If the club is affiliated to the BKFA it's still paying dues to master Yau....if you consider that affiliation to the "correct" body....... Many Lau Gar clubs are not affiliated to this group and there's nothing wrong with them....it just means your hard earned money goes to someone else
John, being in West of Scotland you can't be too far from me n Greyghost in Irvine. Give GG a nudge by PM or whatever, I'm sure he'd be happy to see you, failing that we have a club in Ayr also. Where did you train before? If it was Greenock, I did teach there for a while.......we may have met?
I trained in lau gar in Dumbarton about two years ago with a guy called Andy (cant remember his surname). I also trained in kickboxing at the clydebank playdrome where I went to couple competitions. I noticed that quite a lot of lau gar guys were there. I currently train in SASMA an all styles martial art which doesnt cover any forms. The reason I want to go back to lau gar is mainly for the forms coz i feel that its a great way to clear the mind. I only trained up to blue belt before I left lau gar for my current club so I dont have a lot to catch up on as I still practice the forms I learnt to this day. Does Lau gar cover any hand trapping drills or chi sau drills? coz I dont remember ever seeing it being performed at my old club. cheers
Well John, it's an open invitation any time you feel like dropping in. As to Chi Sau and trapping, strictly speaking no, Lau does not focus on these things, but we do often cover this in Irvine. We like to show as much application for the forms as possible, so you'll see some drill work not dissimilar to WC as it's arguably a great way to flesh out your defensive structure. If you pop down you'll see applications not generally taught in Lau, as we've identified areas of similarity with other systems and cross-referenced some of those. GG is studying internal stuff such as Tai Chi, while I'm still focussed on external systems like WC etc. The closest Scotland Lau Gar club is probably Hamilton for you. They also now teach the three Lau forms found only in the Hung Gar system. These are fantastic, but only generally taught at BB+ level I believe. Sorry for hijacking the thread Stump!
It'd be great to meet you John, though these days I am usually further afield than Irvine. Fraser (AKA Greyghost) is a charm to spar with, and has more tricks up his trouser leg than a ferret farmer. Give us a little notice, and we'll make a night of it!
Interesting Bey Logan Interview, where he says: "I started off with a system called Lau Gar, a kind of chop suey Southern style invented by a man named Jeremy Yau" I read another article where he called Lau Gar a "hybrid Southern Chinese Style" Yet the Lau Ga link states: "Originating from the Northern hilly regions of China" But most of the literature I have read/gained states Lau Gar is one of the 5 "Southern" family styles! Hello again everyone, nice to visit MAP again after so long and jump straight back into a discussion on Lau Gar!!!! Interestingly I E-mailed Martial Arts Illustrated regarding Bey Logan/Lau Gar etc (one of my old teachers edits it) where Bey Logan went on to work after Combat, but got no reply. Yet in the Interview Between Bey Logan and Master Yau in Combat Magazine in 1986(I think?) Bey Logan asked many of the questions that fly around the forums, similarity between jorn sau and wing chun, different Lau Gars, etc...I believe Bey Logan used to study Lau Gar in Peterborough before he even moved to Birmingham to start work for Combat Magazine. I also believe Bey Logan used to share an office building with BKFA/Master Yau at one point? "Why do the Lau Gar forms practised by Hung Gar practicioners bear little or no resemblence to the Lau Gar forms practised by UK Lau Gar practicioners?" My answer would be - teach a lau gar set to a kickboxing school, wait for 100 years then check up on it. My guess is it's going to look more like the kickboxing style than Lau Gar. Hung Gar appears to have a different emphasis on certain principles and techniques (lets not forget that there is still a lot of division in Hung Gar regarding lineage and authenticity if you really start looking and many branches of Hung Gar look different to other branches of Hung Gar). Whatever your opinion of BKFA Lau Gar, the "Guardians" have noticed that within Lau Gar clubs Lau Gar sets are being performed differently depending on the skew of the class, understanding of the techer etc... and are "Re-teaching" a lot of the sets uniformly. If this division/ difference in performance can occur within the same style within around 20-30 years it is perhaps no surprise that hung gar bears little to no resemblance? Just my 2p's worth
For those interested in reading more it was a Combat article, March 1989 and April 1989 (The march issue has much more in it) Bey logan did start Kung Fu (Lau Gar) in peterborough and he did share the same building at some point (Posting from home and have the article to hand!) Bey Logan made the poin tin the interview "...there seems to be several different versions of Lau Gar, with yours being far and away the most popular, There seems to be a seperate version on mainland china and another version in America. can you explain this?" Master Yau replied "There have never been different Lau Gars, as far as the British version goes there have been improvements, most original kung fu techniques were originally designed as being right handed...I have done a few things that enable left handed people to train and that ensure that people train both sides of the body" Master Yau Later reiterates: "First let me say that there are no different kinds of Lau Gar..." All of the books I have got state pretty much the same thing Lau Gar, La Ga, Liu Ga, Liuja etc... is a southern style, probably shaolin in origin (although closly tied to ming dynasty sympathisers/rebels) probably a stripped down shaolin style to be effective for rebels to learn quickly and an effective martial art. I believe that the origins of Lau Gar are perhaps similar to Wing Chun, Both have a "Story book" type explaination, lets face it it sounds better than my martial art was used by oulaws and rebels, and is a stipped down shaolin copy!! Wing chun's "story" being the nun Ng Mui, the 5 southern styles "Story" normally runs something like this: The shaolin abbot Jee Shin Shim Shee taught parts of the old Shaolin kung fu to (amongst others) Hung Hei Gung (Hung Gar), Liu San Yan (Lau Soan Ngan, Lau Saamngaan, Lau Sarm Ngau)(Lau Gar), Choy Gau Yee (Choy/Choi Gar), Lee Yao San (Li Yau Shan) (Lee/Li Gar) and Mok Ching Gui (Mok Tai-Cheung or Mok Da Si)(Mok/Mo Gar). These five styles were named after their founders because using these names instead of the term 'Shaolin' was one way to avoid the attention of the Qing army. These five students each were taught a part of the old style that fitted them best and that they could learn the fastest. (Some accounts state that Hung Hei Gung was actually trained at the Temple, not after the monks had fled and that Hung Hei Gung, Jee Shin and some others went into hiding in "hung sheun" or red boats/red junks which belonged to the Chinese Opera troupes that travelled all over China). Accounts differ in the formation of the southern styles of kung fu, some versions state that at Fukien Shaolin Temple, the surviving royal Ming family members were hidden. They had their own type of martial arts, which is sometimes known as Southern Preying Mantis today. Besides the ones already practiced there (such as Dog style, Fut Gar, Southern Lohan, Tuan Ch'uan, Butterfly Palms, and Five Animals), the Fukien Shaolin martial arts were concentrated into five styles, each with a different emphasis, these eventually became known as the Five Elders styles: Hung, Choy, Li, Mok, and Lau. However, all accounts credit these five martial artists as the famous five families of southern kung fu (Hung, Lau, Choy, Lee, and Mok) that most of the southern systems practised today are related to. onother slightly different version is that the Shaolin monk, Jee Shim, fled to the Kwong How Temple in Canton and took in six famous students. These students were, Liu Chan, Hung Hei-Koon, Choy Chin-Kwong, Mok Tai-Cheung, Lee Yau-Shan, and Lau San. Liu Chan was a religious monk and his beliefs had prevented him from fighting in the revolution. However, the rest went on to propagate the martial arts throughout the south. These five martial artists are credited to have created the famous five families of southern kung fu (Hung, Lau, Choy, Lee, and Mok) that most of the southern systems practiced today are related to. Whichever way you look at it it comes back to Lau San, or three eyed lau, who is credited as the founder of Lau Gar (Whicever version it is you look at - if indeed there are different versions) Apologies for the long answer, this has become something of a challenge for me! PS NOT Official Propaganda Andy!! and by the way I got my Yellow Sash after wimping out the first time!!
Interesting Niel, so what do you think of the contradiction with what you have found in your own research then?
Sorry Andy - I think I must have leapfrogged your question by editing my last post. I assume the contradiction you mean is the different Lau Gars, and I edited to post to add more info about them all seeming to come from the same source "Lau San" I'll let people make up their own minds about what happened after that - but I do believe they come from the same original source.
So would it be fair to say that your conclusion, based on the accumulation of data you have so far, is basically that the time frame that Lau Ga has evolved over makes it impossible to verify or disprove any claim as to what it's syllabus content should be. Incidentally, a lot has happened since 1989!
The road I went down ended up being "What is authentic?" I asked myself what would I need to prove to me its authenticity? Master Yau reaches inside an inside pocket and pulls out an ancient chinese document signed by 5 masters of kung fu verifying his "Authenticity" - ahh, but its in chinese - and I cant read chinese, and how about those other masters - maybe their not "Authentic"... Maybe I log on to a website in chinese with an english translation - Master Yau - Authentic Master! but then we know the quality of some of the misinformation on websites dont we! I went down to the BKFA anniversary meal in Birmingham (Feeling like a fraud incidentally!) after missing my Yellow Sash grading and about to give up - becuase of my need for "Authenticity". What I saw there changed my mind - quite simply everyone was nice, friendly, the demonstrations by the guardians were awesome, and master yau gave a demonstration. The number of people there that had nothing but respect, praise and admiration for master yau made me think. What is Authentic? Maybe thats the wrong question to ask. I should be asking "Do I enjoy it, Does it challenge me, do I learn new things, would I be able to use it if necessary, is there enough "Non-martial" content to balance the style, Is it an effective style? So I bucked my ideas up, packed my books away - realising I was never going to find the answers I was looking for (woods for the trees issue!) and started training again - got my yellow sash and havent looked back since. Thants not to say that I'm not still curious, but yes - in answer to your question I do belive that the time, language, distance, the lack of information, the contradictions in information, the "dramatisation/stories" of events/people does mean that is is unlikly anyone can verify to either prove or disprove any claim as to what it's syllabus content should be. I know a lot has happened since 1989 but I can't find a more recent master yau interview! any ideas?
I'd say it's all a matter of perspective Niel. The cure can be acheived by the drug, or by the placebo. It's the result that matters at the end of the day.
