Langkah application

Discussion in 'Silat' started by silek, May 12, 2006.

  1. hafizan85

    hafizan85 New Member

    Salam

    My english is a bit bad. so i apologize in advance for any mistype/mispell in my post :Angel:

    Maybe pekir has misunderstood kuncian with kunci. Kunci maybe referred as key. yes it does mean the essence of the technique. But kuncian is a different thing. Kuncian is referred as locking. ;)

    And I'm a cekak practitioner too. :D not yet as instructor though.hehe
     
  2. Taker

    Taker Valued Member

    All messed up

    Quoting from Guru Azlan Ghanie, the grandmaster of Silat Melayu Keris Lok 9 and editor of Seni Beladiri magazine in Malaysia:

    "Locking is what differs Silat from other martial arts of the world".

    This is one messed up topic. It's funny when we say that everyone is entitled to their own opinion but along then comes someone who says that everyone is wrong and he's the only man right.

    Anyway, the above quote concludes my point of view. Yours may be different, and it's the freedom of speech that brought us here.
     
  3. Saiful Azraq

    Saiful Azraq Valued Member

    My replies to the comments that interested me

    Salam hormat everyone,

    I pop in once in awhile, so most of you might not remember me. Allow me to give my 2 sen (Malaysian currency), late as they are to the topic.

    Orang Jawa
    “Without shifting weight or lift your front leg, move your left leg to 3 o'clock and at the same time counter clockwise block his pushing hand with left hand and take him down with your right hand. This all movement must be executed in one motion, you will end with a reverse front stance and facing 9 o'clock.”

    I agree with Tristan on this. Depending on the situation and how the opponent is positioned behind you, there are several other options. One of them is a classic one from the play in Silat Pulut (or two-man kembangan, dunno what you guys call it):

    Without stepping, gelek (weight transfer) from your left leg to the right, effectively screwing it clockwise into the ground while giving slack to your attacking arm and counter his parry with your left arm, now closer to him because of your gelek. Your left leg should now be on tiptoe.

    This option has several advantages. A. It takes less time than stepping. B. You make your right foot more difficult to sweep. C. You are in prime position to either drop on your right knee and buckle his at the same time, backfist his face, knifehand his neck (and possibly follow up with a Putar Kepala), or pull him over your static leg.

    I open it for your criticism. Sheer choreography, or useful application? By the way, I didn’t get to see the video on myspace, so some positioning differences would influence my decision to do the above technique.

    Silek
    “We place a huge importance on this, and agree 100% with the "langkah tak mati" concept.”

    I agree 300% with this :) ‘Mati langkah’ (checkmate) comes first from ‘Mati akal’ (clueless), so I would say a key foundation in silat is creative, lateral, parallel and who knows what other types of thinking they have yet to label.

    Orang Jawa
    “I have a question for you in regard of langkah. When you do langkah, how you start from? I meant what weight distribution are you starting it from?”

    I know this question was directed to Silek, but may I add my bits (ouch) to it? Different styles I studied have a different ratio. Silat Cekak, having no perceivable kuda-kuda (kekuda) normally advocated 50-50 on a standing position. This was also true for Silat Sendeng’s initial defensive position for surprise attacks. However, Silat Sendeng’s attacking stance has about 80% leading foot distribution.

    Silat Melayu Keris Lok 9 has a more complex method involving weight foci on 9 points of each foot that correspond to particular functions (kicking, stepping, skating, sliding, bentes, sapu, etc). Silat Kalimah has almost a 70% leading foot distribution.

    “But the important of shoulders and hips movement are very important in langkah, withouth this two, your kicks or punches are not as effective as intended. Can you kick without moving your shoulder or moving your hips? May be? But if you can, then is that an effective technique? And what is the purpose?”

    In Silat Cekak and Silat Kalimah, the shoulders and hips don’t move prominently in punches and kicks because it has different physical culture than traditional Silat Melayu. Since Silat Cekak is a short range catch-and-strike system, most of their punches and low-level kicks work quite well with this. Silat Melayu Keris Lok 9 doesn’t provide emphasis on the hip and shoulders in movement, but concentrate on channeling flow from the tapak into the extremities. But, when the flow gets disconnected at these two joints, then the guru will comment on it.

    Silat Sendeng, being a high-powered pukulan system uses the shoulders and hips to generate and step-up energy into their kicks and punches. Guru Omar Hakim of Silat Kuntau Tekpi USA once commented that it looks very similar to Serak, so maybe there’s something you can reference there to understand what I mean.

    “…so called silat players from Malaysia who are jumping from three stories building as part of their training... Ritual or stupidity?”

    Those guys are from Silat Lincah Malaysia and have been doing stuff like that as part of their tests for years. It has nothing immediately to do with silat techniques other than an extreme way to test their courage. In many cases, the tests are done publicly.

    Pekir
    “In my silat the langkah is your main fundament.”

    As I believe it should be in all traditional Silat.

    “We use a technique for example where when blocked by an opponents leg from behind we turn shin on our heel towards his and (in theory and when executed on the right moment, I agree with Tristan) take over the movement, our shin will be against his at this time”

    I agree with this one, which is similar to the option I gave above.

    “What I mean is, you could opt for getting out of it by rolling away from the attacker in an effort the regain posture and more or less start over again.”

    This type of disengagement is prominent in striking-based systems like Gayong or Sendeng which intend to get out of striking distance as quickly as possible. More locking-based systems like Keris Lok 9, Gayung Fatani, Cekak, Kuntau Tekpi or Kalimah typically tend toward your first option, to keep in the game at a range where full-force striking is difficult.

    Taker
    “In Malaysia traditionally the steps is called "tapak" (and I must tell you, "tapak" is different from "langkah"). Occasionally this refers to how many steps it takes for the opponents' punch/kick to be blocked, hit him/her back and then locking them. The quality of Silat in Malaysia is often graded by it's tapak, the shorter steps it takes, the better the silat was as it'll be quicker to defeat the opponent, but this is a relative evaluation.”

    I would debate your definition as a myopic one. I too studied Silat Cekak to instructor level and understand what you mean. Silat Cekak doesn’t understand the Tapak terminologies the way most other traditional Silat do.

    Langkah and Tapak are used interchangeably in Malaysia since most styles from Kedah, Perak and Pahang use Tapak to mean footwork or a stepping pattern (a terminology we sometimes share with the Sumaterans)while Langkah is prevalent in the south, brought in by Cimande and Sendeng practitioners.

    For many of the Melayu systems, there is agreement on what is considered Tapak 3, Tapak 4, Tapak 5, Tapak gelombang, etc and it doesn’t refer to the amount of physical footsteps necessary nor the amount of discernible physical actions taken to recounter an attack. Tapak refers to how many static points on the floor that you move on complete one defensive counter.

    For example, as you await an attack in a kuda-kuda (or straight-back, your choice), you are on two feet. This is Tapak 1, the first point. The moment you shift balance or step left, right, back, diagonal, etc to avoid an attack, this is Tapak 2, and when you step again to complete the repositioning, this is Tapak 3. Many readers will recognize this as the equivalent to Langkah 3. So, in many cases, Tapak and Langkah are practical synonyms.

    Your definition of Tapak 4 is also debatable, since if you watch Seni Gayung Fatani perform Tapak 4 (now properly codified into a ritual dance), they move on four points of a square. Most of the time Tapak 4 is used to deal with medium range weapons like parang, swords or tongkat (short than a tembong, a long staff, which is what most Indonesian silat call tongkat).

    There are other things I disagree with in this post, but to discuss that would be to stray from Silek’s original question.

    “A silat should include locking moves in the package, as in many magazines in Malaysia including the leading magazine, Seni Beladiri had stated; a buah must end with locking the opponent, as the lock is what makes the technique a silat's buah.”

    I agree with you on the first part, with a little change in emphasis. When translated from Bahasa Melayu, the practical meaning of Kuncian is locking. Kunci means to lock. Anak kunci means key. But when you translate its ideological meaning, it becomes Immobilisation. Thus, any sort of movement that reduces leverage or limits movement is considered a Kuncian, even if you’re simply holding someone’s wrist.

    I respectfully disagree though that a lock ‘makes’ the technique a buah. A buah is a short technique that disables the opponent’s ability to do us further harm. You can do this by locking, throwing (him to the ground) and striking the living daylights out of him.

    You’ll find your claim spurious with Silat Sendeng practitioners because their style teaches buah that has very little if no locking whatsoever. Can we claim it is not silat? It is safer to say that locking is a hallmark of northern style silat, while pukulan is a hallmark of southern style silat. However, post-Merdeka, all of this could be a moot point within 10 years or so.

    You then go out of the way to contradict yourself by saying: “In my style, Silat Cekak Hanafi, out of 21 defensive buahs, only 1 of them didn't end with a lock, the other 20 uses locks to finish the opponent.”

    This means that one of your buahs is not considered silat. I’m sorry, but in my experience, Silat Cekak can hardly speak for Malaysian silat as a whole. I would rather speak of Silat Cekak as a highly unique and effective combat method, but there’s very little connection to other Silat Melayu.

    Finally
    Thanks for the opportunity and apologies all around to the guys if I haven’t added anything to the discussion. Just thought I’d try. Thanks.

    Salam persilatan,
     
  4. Raden-Rahmat

    Raden-Rahmat Valued Member

    just a spanner in the works

    salam to all and here comes my 3 cents, worth 1 sen in malaysia...cos its south african currency...lol...
    debating on weight distribution and positioning of body and direction etc...however, what if the response is tipu??? in my opinion silat uses tipu alot which is an element not progressively advised in other arts...our teacher usually spoke of this when showing us the Seni...seni is so involved and even the shadow fighting...but back to basics...if the tipu is used...im sure the attacker would never stand the chance to have u...as you now have his steps calculated
     
  5. Saiful Azraq

    Saiful Azraq Valued Member

    A spanner!

    Salam hormat Raden-Rahmat,

    Hahahahaha... Definitely a spanner in the works! I agree wholeheartedly. But if you remember your studies in Silat Melayu Keris Lok 9, the Tipu Helah is part of the Tapak and the Lam Alif.

    Tipu Helah is quite controversial in silat over here, since deception is 99% prohibited in Islam, except in times of war. I have met pesilat who have incorporated so much of Tipu Helah philosophy in their lives, that they've become habitual liars. This is the danger that was tempered by Islam.

    Tipu Helah is not a predominant characteristic of all silat, but mainly those that originate from Sumatera and Tanah Melayu and existed long before Islam came to our shores. All Islam did in this sense, was to install a moral compass within pesilat to know when and where it was necessary to use this.

    I've written about this before, so I'll just link it here. I'd appreciate your comments.
    http://silat-melayu.blogspot.com/2008/01/tipu-helah-shameless-trickery-of-silat.html

    Salam persilatan,
     
  6. Raden-Rahmat

    Raden-Rahmat Valued Member

    enthical or not???

    slm and thanks but u can give my spanner back now...hehe
    regards to tipu...helah>>>
    im not too sure it should considered an issue for the islamic judiciary to be involved. since defence in the first place is necessary when being attacked, which is injustice on 1st count. Islam considers the right to stand and fight for your rights and survival...like the ayah in surah tawbah....basically saying that we should prepare with whatever means we have, in strength and in weaponry, to implant fear in the hearts of the enemy. so in light of this, if your tipu results in him retreating from further injustice, then your act was justified. morally and ethically your grounds to defend our natural and legal. whether you are straight forward or use tipu, your right to defend is one that is recognised.

    my opinion...only mine
     

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