'Ladies' and man-made language

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by ArthurKing, Aug 6, 2014.

  1. ArthurKing

    ArthurKing Valued Member

    Don't mean to derail a good thread, but are all women ladies, or just some? Are all men gentlemen or just some? Which ones? Who decides? I suggest taking a look at some Feminist literature- maybe 'Man Made Language' by Dale Spender as a start.
    Or even take a look at Wikipaedia
    Food for thought.
     
  2. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    And the latest in "reasons people are taking feminism less seriously..."
     
  3. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I wouldn't worry about it. Anybody ever shouts at you about that then they're being irrational.
     
  4. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Ugh, some feminist literature just gets WAY too extreme for my tastes. I say this AS someone who consideres herself a feminist.

    I remember a ways back where feminists said we couldn't spell women that way because it showed us as a subset of men. They were spelling it all sorts of ways. Wimmin, Womyn, etc. Totallly dumb IMO.

    I see nothing wrong with the term ladies. There is no negative connotation inferred or implied in the term. Rather the opposite. I do see it as a class designation of sorts, like gentlemen. It connotes a woman who conducts herself with certain manners and civilized behaviors approved of in society.

    I know, I am going to totally confuse people who had me pidgeonholed as a rabid feminist from the "hit like a girl" thread.........:p
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    So we all agree on "Tarts and Vicars" then?

    Motion carried!
     
  6. ArthurKing

    ArthurKing Valued Member

    Fixed that for you...
    ...and that
    Pardon me, all 'designations' include and exclude, lady=clean and well mannered, not lady= dirty and ignorant? It's how the word is used, I can think of a number of words for people(s) that are not negative in themselves, but are used in perjorative ways.

    Language and speech are very powerful (as Remi's workshop seems to confirm).

    If you really want to discuss this stuff, read the literature, speak from a position of knowledge.
     
  7. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Not fixed. I know some women, my mother included, who are uncomfortable identifying as feminist now because of the tumblr-esque extreme stuff like Aaradia has pointed out. Feminism is starting to become a derogative now more than it was because of people reading way too much into things. Like the womyn example, or yours as it happens.

    Edit: Looking at fb reminded me: The Cheryl Cole name change thing is another example. There are plenty of women commenting on those stories and posts decrying modern feminism.

    But even if I was wrong, men taking feminism less seriously is still a bad thing. I never understood how the idea you could improve these things without having men on side. Antagonising half the population, and the half you want to change at that, seems counter productive to getting them to do what you want.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
  8. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    I'm struggling to see how you jumped to this.

    Or, since we're talking about objective views on the English language, communication, perception of words and meanings and so forth, we open it up to anyone who has an opinion who would like to say something. Not just those who read rabid pro-feminist dogma that would make your average Joe and Joanne bleed from the eyeballs.
     
  9. ArthurKing

    ArthurKing Valued Member

    The purpose of Feminism= the empowerment of women.
    The purpose of Feminism is not= changing men, antagonizing men or 'getting them to do what you want'.

    Words are very powerful, they reveal and proscribe the way you structure the world. Some people use the word 'Lady' to mean nothing more than woman, but the word itself carries other meanings and nuances of meaning with it, whether you like or not. Some people will pick up on this, some won't- this is exactly the kind of sensitivity I was referring to earlier. Some women don't use the word 'woman' because they want a word to describe themselves that doesn't feel like a 'girlied up' version of the word for man. I often use the word 'guys' when addressing groups of my students, men and women, girls and boys.

    It seems to me that Remi understood this need to talk the talk when he was carefully researching the issues around working with abused women.

    Ask yourself this, why are most martial arts classes, self defence classes and martial arts related forums and sports etc dominated by men? Why do some women start a martial arts class and then give up after a couple of sessions. Maybe how the instructor and/or other students speak to them is part of the answer.

    P.S. I'm not suggesting that the Lady example is the biggest problem, there are certainly worse ways of addressing people. I'm also not suggesting that you or any one else 'police' their language so as to be appropriately 'right-on'.
    You don't have to agree with me, but don't just do the blokey knee-jerk thing railing against 'those who read rabid pro-feminist dogma' . One of the reasons i'm here is to learn, about martial arts predominantly, but also about issues around the subject.
    Read some of the texts, find out what the arguments really are then we can carry on- start a new thread if you want, I don't want to do any more derailment of this one. Thanks.

    P.P.S.
    I took that as red.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
  10. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    Mr. King,

    In case you hadn't noticed, this is a new thread and now completely separated from the one about sd classes. Feel free to discuss the topics of language and feminism as much as you'd like in this thread.
     
  11. ArthurKing

    ArthurKing Valued Member

    I hadn't noticed, haven't got anything else to add at this moment, Ta!
     
  12. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Typical bloke..........


    :evil:
     
  13. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    I have a half-sister who has spent virtually all her life either under the influence of radical femimism as a student at Sorbonne and other Universities or as a proponent – a 'pusher', if you will, of such as a tenured professor of Feminist Studies and Modern Languages.

    I spent enough time in my younger years around her and the elitists who run the programme to be able to draw a fairly accurate view of them over the last 30 years.

    If I told you what they actually believe, the logic used, the thought processes of these highly educated people and their 'objectives', half of you would laugh to scorn as it would sound so utterly preposterous the other half would be unsettled/uncomfortable to the point of 'switching the channel'.

    Yeah, its taken for granted – common sense – that one simply ignores the screechings and demands made upon all of society by a presumed “fringe” faction of a religion or belief system. But not unlike the moderate clerics and religious leaders of religions, the 'moderates', the less shrill in the heirarchy are under a TEMENDOUS amount of pressure to conform to the demands of the more radical as the “at any and all cost” nature of these people helps catapult them to the inner sanctum.

    I saw this with my sister, over the years as she did her Masters, Phd, post doc and especially during the period of first publishing – where the ugliness and power mad politics really begin to unmask the beast – whatever “normal”, personal beliefs she had began to disappear as they were “dangerous” to her fledgling career in academia and there were a few who would use any statement made in someone's thesis, paper in an academic journal, etc – that could be deemed as 'weak', 'uncle-tom-like', 'counter-revolutionary/feminist/radicalist – whatever – as a weapon – if nothing but jealousy.

    Have to say, she's lost her humour, her charm over the years. Nothing is humorous, to be taken lightly. So angry and defensive now. I have to say I miss the 'old' her.

    So it ends up that a religion, belief system, ____ism or __________ ist - fill in the blanks, becomes the defacto singular voice of that belief system.

    All of society in all the world is devolving into extreme polarities – whether its politics, religion or even, unfortunately, what should actually be a good thing, which is the people and events that once strove to bring fairness and equality to an oppressed part of our world.

    The radicalisation of feminism is but one example of a major trend.

    But as for radical feminism – I'm all for it. Couldn't be any worse than radical ___ or extreme ____ or fundamentalist ________ or....
     
  14. dormindo

    dormindo Active Member Supporter

    Just as a slight counterpoint to the above, I think that much of the atmosphere is heavily dependent on the institution itself. I am currently pursuing my degree and had taken some women's studies courses as part of it. I've found the courses and the faculty involved to be quite interesting in their ideology and methodology but far from the stereotype of the seething radical feminist that I keep hearing about in some corners of the media and on my Facebook wall (not saying that you're implying or inferring any of these things, belltoller, I'm just using your post as a jumping off point).
     
  15. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Ask 10 people what feminism means and you'll get 10 different answers. That was the biggest thing I took away from my college course about it is that it is one of the biggest umbrella terms in political ideology. But even if we take your definition as fact, empowerment of women seems to come from challenging male perceptions and attitudes towards them. Doing that without the men on side is difficult to say the least.

    Words have as much power as people give them. Words mean absolutely nothing unless the person hearing them decides they do.

    For some people its a courtesy along the lines of gentlemen. For me, language means a lot less than intent. The day we start picking apart people for trying to be nice is the day I completely give up with this stuff.

    Hold the phone. This started because you picked up that some women may not like the term lady because it has connotations that I doubt many people care about, but then you address women with a term traditionally meaning males? This is why arguments like this about language are so tiring. I can understand women not liking the term "love" or "dear" which is why I don't use them, but being cautious about using normal terms like "woman" is expecting too much. Its a step away from expecting people to mind using the word "female." I appreciate you're not saying to stop using the words, simply pointing out that some may have problems with it, but I genuinely can't get my head around those sorts of things enough to be engaged. Getting angry about such a trivial thing that requires a very specific interpretation seems pointless given the mountain of other things to be angry about in the world.

    Numerous reasons. More intense martial arts are typically a male thing. I'm not saying women who do them can't also be girly girls but I imagine I would struggle to find a woman who enjoys the idea of mma more than I would to find a guy. Fighting seems to be a more naturally male thing. I don't know if that's biological or societal, but women are usually incredibly awkward when they first start. Granted that could well be because they're aware they're in a male-dominated arena and are self-conscious.

    But yeah, I would definitely agree the attitudes of men in martial arts is a big reason. Its actually one of my biggest peeves is men treating their female training partners differently. There may also be an article on map with me discussing such with women I know. Shameless plugging is shameless :p
     
  16. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    To be fair I think most people know that (EDIT: re-read what you said...are you sure you didn't mean to establish true equality rather than focusing on empowerment specifically?), but the perception tends to be that the lines between "encouraging guys to understand and be on the same page with equality issues" and "yelling at guys who don't treat women as utterly awesome" does get blurred when the term feminism is brought up for a lot of people, rightly or (realistically) wrongly. Like aaradia's earlier examples about the spelling of "woman" or "women".

    True enough, but to that extent...I hate to be flippant, but it is something really worth stressing about? It's not like we're calling everyone "Playas and Hoes" afterall. "Lady", much like "gentleman" is still considered a largely polite method of referring to a woman by (I would guess) the majority of people. It would be no different to worrying about referring to a group of men as "gentlemen", surely?

    I think realistically you have to take this on a balance of probabilities. I could realistically expect to offend a group of people if I walked into a busy room and shouted "What's up, female dogs?!". Walking into the same room and shouting "ladies and gentlemen!" is significantly less likely to upset anyone, surely?

    Why not "guys 'n gals"? As "guys" could be seen to have an undercurrent of a male dominant phrasing in the same way "ladies" could be seen to have particular connotations, would it not?

    Actually I never thought about this.

    To be honest, I always assumed the primary reasoning was for the same reason that most women I speak to freak out over the idea of weight lifting, rugby, martial arts or any other physical activity that is highly demanding on the body and comes with a "macho" image. I would think it has less to do with communicational issues though than how those activities are perceived.

    I apologise if I came across as snarky. It wasn't my intent, though it certainly does read that way.

    But at the same time, it was this (bolded bit) that got me:

    Speaking of the power of words :p, this just struck me as you saying that "unless you have read these books, you cannot understand feminism and therefore your opinion simply doesn't hold much/any weight".

    Again, apologies if I misinterpreted what you meant to say.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
  17. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Go ahead and jump away, dormindo, lol. Right, the stalwart, 'anti-radical-feminists' being just as much the cartoon caricatures as the one's they portray. Very much so.

    Glad you had an open-minded, fun University course. One must usually wait for Partial-Differential Equations for that, lol.
     
  18. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    The point of feminism is not about the empowerment of women, it is (supposed to be) about the equalisation between genders. Personally I'm all about equalism as it's about fairness between everyone. Things like in a divorce the kids shouldn't automatically go to the mother, because that's sexist.

    I seen a video today where a woman said "it's called feminism and not equalism because people would lose sight of women and gender....



    So yeah, in short, not a feminist myself, I'm an equalist.
     
  19. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I was wondering why this thread was in the self-defense section until I read belltoller's post about his half sister. :p
     
  20. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    Judging by people who post here on MAP and sometimes on Facebook it would seem like these extreme feminists are everywhere. I have to say I live in the most politically/cause driven places in my country, and go to school near it, and not once in my life have I ever come across an extreme feminist. How common are these people? :confused:
     

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