I've studied in a few different styles, never for too long unfortunatly due to circumstances like Sensei's moving to different states, and all of them so far have reserved all weapons training until the much higher ranks. While I do enjoy the empty hand techniques, my passion lies in the weapons. It got to the point where I was so frustrated, I just took up fencing. And as much fun as I had there, I wasn't satisfied. Perhaps some of you whom teach can help me out...where can I find weapons training? Are there websites devoted to them? Also, why do many teachers delay weapons training for so long? Thanks ahead of time.
In many arts, weapons training is reserved for higher ranks simply out of "tradition." That's how the instructors were taught, and their instructors were taught. My recommendation would be to find a school/instructor teaching Filipino martial arts. We start with weapons (specifically, sticks) straight out of the gate. And the Filipino martial arts are recognized and respected, pretty much universally, as some of the finest weapons arts in the world. Of course, there are some people who claim to teach FMA, but who have no real clue about them. They've been to a couple of seminars, learned a couple of basic stick drills, and then tack those onto their curriculum. It's enough to impress the naive, but it's nothing more than window dressing. But you find bad apples in every batch. And, unfortunately, there's no easy way to tell whether someone is a legitimate FMA instructor or not, unless you've got some FMA background yourself. A good rule of thumb, though, is this: if they only spend 5 or 10 minutes swinging sticks in a class, then they're probably not an FMA school (though the instructor may still, in fact, be a legitimate FMA instructor, that's probably not the school's primary focus). All the FMA classes I've seen start with basic stick work and spend at least 50% of each class with a weapon in hand. As training progresses, the weapons get more varied and include, at least, stick and knife, but may also include flexible weapons, staff, sword, whip, and others. Depends on the school and their curriculum. But if you get into FMA, you'll be getting a lot of exposure to weapons in general, and you'll start early. Mike
No elements should be left for higher ranks. Weapons, empty hands, clinch, ground, firearms, OC should all be taught to everyone, regardless of rank. Demi www.DemiBarbito.com
Hi Demi & Mr H, welcome to the forum. Unfortunate I know, but I believe many Traditional systems hold weapons work back, as a student retention tool, or like a 'Carrot on a stick'. I'm not saying this is right, but those that say they hold weapons back because of the danger of the weapons, are more likely to be a danger to themselves, having practiced with their weapons far less than anything else. There is the issue of responsibility with young children, and of safety, which may have Insurance implications in some countries.
Only the Blackbelts are taught the 'Carrot on a stick' where I train! I can understand holding back the bladed weapon training, but theres so much benefit to the stick training. Only the FMA people seem to have realised so far!
I have to agree here pgm. I mean how in order to use knife techinques in a self defence purpose that means actually carrying one. I know we've had that discussion over and over. From what I imagine stick work could be applied to any object with enough range to allow it to be effective. Much more likely for them to be kicking around than serated edge butterly knifes Plus you can throw a stick away to get an angry Dog to chase it!
We hold back the weapons to allow the students to learn movements and footwork and how to flow with thier techniques better. Most people who join up are severly unco (I was as well). The first few belt just give people the basics of motion and get them a feel for how they move. Also it isnt exactly holding the stuff back it just isn't in the first few syllabuses. There are always weapon lying around and no-one minds if we just pick up a weapon and strat playing with it. One of our big things we like to work on the the free form nature of the art in that you do things your way and I do it mine but we all learn the basics. This also allows for people to just "play" with whatever they want. I watch many of the higher belts who never really got the whole point of the first belts and see them as not moving well, especially with weapons. This does look very bad and I know they aren't getting the idea of what they are doing. Then I look at some of the other high belts who did learn the first belts well and understood the basics and they look light years ahead of the others. Learning movements at the beginning is hard enough an dif you add a weapon then you will just complicate it. After you understand how your body works, learning weapons isn't very hard, just look at the possibilities.
That may be the opinion of your school, but I'd disagree with it. I don't think adding the weapons early makes any difference at all as far as learning movements and gaining coordination. In my opinion, the opposite is true (not saying you're wrong, just pointing out that there are other perspectives that have been proven just as valid ) I see nothing wrong with training weapons early or late. I've been in systems that have done both and I think, in the long run, the student ends up at the same place. Mike
My sensei has told me that although he knows a few weapons he is reluctant to teach them. The reason being that as soon as you put a weapon in someones hand that is all they want to focus their training on. I do not agree with him entirely. I think that he is a bit rusty and that maybe the main reason - but never tell him that I told you.............. I have trained weapons a little in various classes with other arts and with individuals. I pick them up quickly due to my strong karate foundations and I will often match a peers skill within a short time. The argument is two fold. I don't think that you'll miss out if you do not do weapons and build a strong martial foundation but equally I don't think you need a strong foundation to achieve a good level.
Of course, the addendum to that thought is that the quickest way to get past that "tunnel vision" of focus, is to train with the weapons I'd phrase it that a "strong martial foundation" can be built with or without weapons in the early training. It's just that one method includes the weapons in that foundation early on and the other doesn't. Mike
Exactly! I agree. Maybe he just requires some gentle persuassion He is visiting his sensei this month and I get the impression from him that he will be brushing up on his weapons. So when he comes back will be the ideal time to have a "chat". Or maybe a gift would be a good idea, i.e a bo The only other thing against us is time in the dojo.
well I train in an armed MA that is stick fighting and no very little empty hand techniques. My unarmed knowledge comes from being the nerdy kid at school and what my friend taught me who has no formal trining either. I agree that it seems that most dojos hold weapons as a carrot to keep peopel still paying. i lost interst in TKD when I learn that teh weapons were reserved for higher ranks and thought well this suks bye. I meanI already was learning weapon techniques but I wanted to learn another style.
Hello Andy, Maybe there are other reasons why some schools reserve weapons training for higher ranking students and why some teach them outright. In arnis (or other Filipino weapons arts), the reason might be based on Filipino culture itself. Filipino fighters lean more on the practical side, and would use any means necessary to gain an advantage against an opponent to neutralize them as quickly as possible, so weilding and fighting with weapons is a more natural thing to do for them rather than facing an opponent unarmed. Unarmed techniques, usually, are used mainly as a last resort. This might also be the reason why some maestro or guro teach empty-handed techniques after teaching weapons techniques. As for other arts or systems, weapons training may act as a supplement (such as the case of the bokken and jo in aikido), showing how they (weapons) are related to the empty-handed techniques. It may also be simply because of tradition; carrying and using a sai or a rokushakubo nowadays would be almost impractical (these weapons being too dangerous, illegal, or simply hard to bring with one's self all the time), but many karate sensei still teach them because they were also taught how to use them. Another reason we can add is that the weapon might be considered dangerous if put in the hands of a novice with no clear idea of when or where he could use it, like that in using knives. Just my two cents.
Who is going to be better with a weapon? Would it be a brown belt who just started his weapons training, or a brown belt who has been using said weapon since white or yellow belt level?
In the Bujinkan, all are taught weapons, regardless of rank. Beginner on up. We are also taught not to develope tunnel vision when it comes to said weapon. Weapon or empty handed, the emphasis is on taijutsu, or more precisely, how the body moves. Can you make your body go where you want to? Some of the empty handed drills we do, take on a whole new aspect when a weapon is thrown in. Then when all is said and done, our instructor breaks it down and shows us how they both are the same. Weapons for beginners? Most certainly.
Who in your example 1ONEfighting, is going to be better empty-hands? Who is going to have a better 'foundation' to build weapons techniques ontop of? Or who is going to have a better foundation to build empty hands techniques onto? Point is - either way it's a trade off. Personally, I think that it works well either way - but not both ways at the same time. One first, one later - but not both all the time. Personally, I'm training in one art the 'reserves' weapons till the end, and one that starts with them (Bujinkan along with Kali seminars and influences) - so I end up getting the mix - and it is confusing - but I suppose as I go from both ends of the spectrum towards the other simulaneously - I'll get a really interesting perspective. I'll also be wicked in both I suppose by the time I've gone through the bulk of the training. Either that or I'll just be mind boggled, mixed up and confused
In our class and of course in all classes of Qwan ki do around the world we are tought a lot of weapons since the begining starting with staff 1.90 m long , 2 sticks , knives , sword , halebard and other traditional weapons BUT there is a certain order that you are allowed to start with : first comes the staff, 2 sticks , tonfa and so on but only after black belt you are allowed to train with knives , sword or any other sharp weapon that the style has to offer-it makes sense because you can't teach every one how to use a knive and hope they won't use it just "for fun"!!:Angel: I know train with a staff and i very much like it! p.s.-forgive my english
Still, the sooner you start learning something, the sooner you will be good at it. I'd rather not have to be a blackbelt starting off again as a beginner with the weapons.
