Well that's your interpretation isn't it, that by some strange stretch in your imagination you want to make it about me .. Sounds like my jokey turn of phrase some how offended you Biachi. As for you judging me - yeah right, whatever. Judge away smart man. how boring.
WTF is up with you two? Tired of crapping all over the IMA threads, so you figure you should come over here and crap all over the Kung Fu threads too? I guess you two must have some bad blood, but I for one could give an eff less. Nobody wants to see your little tiffs played out on the MAP forums.
Well, the ancient Greeks used to do it. In the 'archaic' era, before they had well-drilled formations of hoplite soldiers, war used to involve the aristocratic types from each side shouting insults and calling each other out for duels which then gradually devolved into a free-for-all melee (like a street fight between two armed gangs rather than two armies marching at each other). This gradually happened less once they decided that instead of individual heroics and glory-seeking by posh kids with expensive swords it would work better to take large numbers of ordinary men and drill them to work as a formation with spears and shields. It also used to happen in the ancient middle east quite a lot, there's even a duel between 'champions' mentioned in the Old Testament, the story of David and Goliath. I know that a lot of people wouldn't accept the Old Testament as an accurate historical reference, but it does show that whoever wrote that story was familiar with the idea of personal challenges between 'champions' of opposing armies and didn't think his readers would find the idea odd. As somebody else has pointed out modern 'Greco-Roman' is a recent french thing. The modern olympics were resurrected by a frenchman whose name I can't remember because he was worried about the lack of fitness of the young people of france some time in the early 20th century. I'm really not convinced about this. I can't find it now, but I've posted a pic before from a medieaval german source showing a couple of knights rolling about on the floor trying to stab each other. I still think the Chinese martial arts are the odd ones out here.
My unsupported guess is that at some point the chinese military decided that they wanted to train people to stay on their feet at almost any cost rather than taking the approach of 'well sometimes you end up rolling about on the floor and this is how to deal with it', so got them to drill with rules where falling over was very penalised. The use of Lei Tais and small wooden boxes like we use in class seems like it's all intended to make you very careful about controlling where you put your feet (and staying up on them). I don't have any historical sources for this, it's just a guess.
Yes, I see what you mean, what with all of the submission grappling in karate, Western Boxing, Muay Thai, Escrima, Savate, Capoeria, Almost every style of Folk wrestling, Sumo, Turkish wrestling, kendo, fencing, TKD (interestingly Ssireum is Korean folk wrestling and from Wiki:opponents lock on to each other's belt, and one achieves victory by bringing any part of the opponent's body above the knee to the ground), Silat......need I go on? Again, its not a CMA thing, every culture kept grappling for shows of strength and weapons for the killing. The only exceptions didnt last long and were rare. From what I can tell most submission grappling existed only where large rich cultures could support a number of men who were expendable. For example grappling in Greece had a submission element but it was not universal and most bouts were won by a pin or by three falls (or even outs) and it didnt become the blood bath that we imagine it as today until the Romans took it over (in fact the Spartans were only happy to grapple (with other city states) where submissions were not allowed as they would not permitt their men to submitt to another power, even in sport). Like wise there was submission grappling in India but only amoungst a group kept by royalty.
Those martial arts don't have groundwork submissions, but the countries they come from (with the possible exception of Korea) have other martial arts which contain some kind of groundwork. According to Master Sken, Muay Boran had groundwork. We've had different sorts of catch wrestling with submissions all over Europe and the US. Catch wrestling wasn't connected with a wealthy elite, quite the opposite.
So show me the richness of submission grappling that exsited historically! And before Catch was Catch, it was Lancashire, which had rules against both choking and the breaking of limbs. Catch is a relatively modern invention in the same way as grecco. Anyway, Lancashire was hardly popular. And we still have a massive amount of grappling with out submission v those that do.
You can google for your own gay pr0n. There was a big tradition of it in the US too. Yeah, but where are the chinese arts with subs?
I can, oh boy I can. What I can't do is find much Sub Grappling pre global travel. What, during the period that CMA were developing? Again, for like the 10000th time, there arn't any! The Chinese (just like almost everyone else at the time) didn't have any need of them! If you wanted to kill someone you stabbed them with any one of a billion differant types of impliment avaliable to you. If you were grappling it was not to prepare you for war, it was for social reasons, probably against someone from your own village or from the next village over.
I already showed you some greeks and indians, and I made a vague reference to german knights. That ought to get you started. I'm sorry Liokault, but there are a lot of other people out there on the Internet in intellectual trouble who need my help too. Well, CMA are still developing. Some of the most famous styles today aren't documented as being more than a couple of centuries old. Yeah, but I've shown you subs from other cultures all around the world. How come such a massive country as China never produced any? Don't you think that's odd?
Um, you showed me a statue of a 2 greeks who may have been grappling, a pic of indian mail and a story about germans falling over.....Oh the wealth of submission grappling. You'r going to the pub arn't you! Indeed, but I'm just trying to stop Slipthejab jumping up and down, pointing bat CMA and shouting BJJ!!!!BJJ!!!BJJ!!!111ONE!!111!!BJJ like on the other thread. If we think that a statue from Greece counts as all over the world then yes fine. Again, for every Sum art that you can name (again lets keep this historic and say from before 1850) I can name 4 non sub arts.
Since he has resorted to sending threatening PMs, I'm now going to leave this thread to Liokault so he can 'win at the Internet'.
How absurd. 1) If that's what you think I've said you obviously haven't been paying attention in this thread or the other thread. 2) Seriously go back and read and try to understand what's being discussed. It's not some sort of BJJ is superior argument at all. 3) It's rather easy to look back to many cultures of the world that have grappling as part of their culture and have for thousands of years... the Greeks, the Mongolians, the Persians, many many different people in Africa, different Native American tribes throughout the Americas...
LOL! Yeah someday the MOD's will have to let us do a gallery of all the PM threats that have ever been sent via MAP's private mail function. It'd be a comedy riot. I've got a whole collection of them dating from way back. Classic... friggen classic. None of them are worth the wasted bandwidth they're posted on.
It wasn't threatening. And by a massive coincidence, I will probably post a vid of Cullion next weekend in his first comp, which oddly is a stand up grappling event with an arbitrary win for forcing your opponent down or out. Million to one chance ey!
Ok, so to put that other thread into the context of this one: Your saying that at the point where Korpys KF developed to use ground fighting, you didnt basically say 'well its not kung fu is it! its sambo, BJJ, Judo'. Read the post, where did I say or imply superior? Yes, yes it it which is why they have already been gone into them. Did you really read this thread or do you just do a search for your name every few hours?
Why is it that as soon as we get IMA guys over in the Kung Fu Forum we get this kind of childishness? Must you act like teenagers? There are a couple of guys who come over here and post and are respectful and polite - props to them - you know who you are.
err... did you have trouble understanding that the Rubber Guard comes directly from BJJ? Did you also not understand that there traditionally hasn't been any sort of triangle choke in CMA? They weren't techniques passed onto his trainer by misty mountain monks as part of a KF syllabus now where they? No. Not in the slightest. Chances are that the majority of them were taken from modern training materials made available by BJJ and Sambo. How hard is that to understand? Again... reading comprehension is your friend. You're the one that implied it when you tried to paint me as coming in saying BJJ is the be all end all. It's not. That's not what was said. That was where you started implying that's what I was on about. Seriously go back and read the posts again. And...? Are you now having trouble figuring out how it relates to this thread? Seriously... Pot meet kettle. You can barely understand what you're posting let alone what anyone else is posting. How rich.
Are we talking about a tournament or a real street fight? If I was taken to the ground in a street fight and my kids were with me... I'm confident that me sticking my finger in his eye and driving it as deep in his head as I can would do the trick. Or what about if he is trying to mount me and I reach up and bite him as hard as I possibly can in his stomach or chest or face? We don't train much on the ground but I do address it with my students and practice several manuevers to manipulate the head and take their balance from the ground and reverse the position for us to be on top and then decide whether to get up or ground and pound. depending on the situation and terrain. We do practice drills with kettle/club bells, 50lb sand bags and human bodies doing turkish get ups and such. I think the main objective is not allowing a good grappler get to that point of no return. A swift elbow to the back of the neck when he attacks works great which is not allowed in a sport fight. Just my .02. Shun Shifu Vargas Elk Grove, CA
