So, in another post about what other art people would study to supplement their kung fu, ground fighting arts were mentioned a lot, mainly because most kung fu lacks ground fighting. Why do you all think most kung fu lacks ground fighting? From what I have seen/heard of from people in China, there is a lot more ground fighting in the kung fu found their (this is second-hand information, however). Why do you think this has changed as it comes over to the US? Personally, I think it makes no sense that most kung fu arts leave out ground fighting. Any complete system of fighting should have it, so I would like to believe the lack is due to a mis-step in the translation of the arts verses a centuries-old oversight.
I think that "ground fighting" as it is today is more aimed towards sporting style events. Many gungfu systems were developed in a time when weapons were legal to carry, and so the empty hand aspects of the arts were less relevant than they are today. That said, there are some styles of gungfu that focus on ground fighting, and most styles (when taught completely) have a wide collection of escapes and counters to defend against grapplers.
I'm not sure I agree. Many styles have survived as "stand alone stand up" systems for ages. Karate, TKD, TSD, Savate, Boxing... why is it so odd that Chinese arts fall into the same trap? And for the record, escapes and counters =/= groundfighting. A good wrestler or sambo stylist or BJJer will smash through most kung fu "anti-grappling" in a few seconds.
I think that the Chinese arts lack a pure ground fighting art along the lines of BJJ because it was probably looked down upon to roll around on the floor. In most cases whoever is the most dominant wins obviously and leads to the ground and pound or limb break. I know some cats have said they can work some Chin Na on the ground and that is interesting. However I have never really seen that go against a skilled grappler. I mean Shuai Chiao has the throws and dog boxing deals out kicks while being on the floor. What other styles or methods do you think CMA has? Not many I bet. So it's hard to say if any other CMA has anything as extensive as BJJ when it comes to ground work.
I've done the Chin Na and Shuai Jiao (several guys have more experience with it than me, but hey, it's not liike I never tried it). It's not bad, but I've played around with it in BJJ class. It's not going to be terrible effective aganst a strong grappler. It's a different mindset, and that's the major problem.
Definately agree, a good wrestler/grappler will get through (I hate this term) anti-grapple techniques. However, against someone who is not a trained grappler, the techniques (if taught correctly) can be effectively utilised. I'm not saying that gungfu styles are the greatest, most unbeatable styles. But they do their job. They have their main focus, but cover some basics of other ranges also.
traditional chinese submission grappling: http://www.amazon.com/Chin-Traditio...6515975?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185990245&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Shaolin-Chin-...6515975?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185990245&sr=8-2 http://www.amazon.com/Chin-Ground-F...6515975?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185990245&sr=8-3 I like the first one the most, that one I got from the TruthMA site. The techniques seem to be valid from what I know and practiced of modern submission grappling. Anyone read any of them?
Groundwork in most Chinese arts is of a *very* different mindset than grappling arts that spend 95% of the time on the ground. There is a difference in perspective, in goals, and a number of other things which inadvertently causes a difference in techniques and skills. The type of ground work that is from styles like BJJ is not a part of any CMA system, as far as Im aware. The best way to realize this is to just visit a BJJ class for a day. In the end, it really doesnt matter. You get good at what you work on. If you want to cover all ranges equally, then supplement with a ground-based system. If you want to get uber-good at nothing but jabs and hooks and crosses, then western boxing is your friend. If you want to grow up and be a plumber then it would not be a good idea to get a degree in business management. Know what your goal is and train as necessary. Find which elements interest you and go after them. Everything else is beside the point. The problem is how much it is trained. If you trained SC or qinna to the degree that they are training their grappling, you could get it to work just fine. But "dabbling" in SC and qinna and "applying it a little bit to see how it works" will obviously yield mixed results.
Ground fighting exists in most styles of kung fu but varies from a couple of techniques to dozens depending on the style. Unfortunately in CMA these techniques are considered advanced and often closed door techniques and the kung fu fad of the seventies caused many intermediate and even some beginner students to jump in and play teacher. Those guys spawned a couple of new generations of make believe sifu's and none of them have all the material or understanding of the material from thier system and they can only teach what they learned. The links above are good books. I believe the first and second are just different printings of the same bookm though.
Uhm, it was part of the three years of Kung Fu I did. I said "applying it a little" because certain techniques are illegal in BJJ, so I can't go all out on small joint manipulation, for example. But overall, the KF grappling I've seen is of a very different purpose, and that's why, to answer the OP, people flock to crosstrain.
Hmmm... great thoughts so far. While I agree ground fighting is lacking in most kung fu we see in the west, my real question (for those of you who have had this experience) is whether or not in traditional Chinese schools (in China) if ground fighting is taught more. The reason I ask this is because from what I have heard, there is a lot more ground fighting in such schools; a simple example is the demonstrations the Shaolin monks have done (Wheel of Life tour), which IIRC, included more than a few throws and other ground work.
Yes, the focus is very very different. I dont disagree with that, in fact, I stated it above as well, and again below. Its so different that most Chinese practitioners dont even realize how much different somethign can be, until they actually go and see what "rolling" is all about. My primary point with your post was simply that if you trained only those SC and qinna items you tested at your BJJ class, 2 hours a day, 3 or 4 days a week, for 3 years, while rolling with your BJJ class, you would probably have a VERY different outlook as to the usability of those techniques. That is to say, you were allowing the SC or qinna to be the limiting factor here, and not the time and intensity which you have trained them. DISCLAIMER: I realize that some qinna and SC techniques are inherently higher-percentage techniques than others, that you simply wouldnt use some of them, while others are much mroe versatile in real-world. Thats just the thing. Throws and working from ground to get back up on your feet. Ground-based arts dont work like that. They spend 95-100% of the time actually on the ground, on their back stomach, etc. When they get in a good position, they dont stand up and reset to striking, they work for submissions, position while on the ground, etc. Their world IS the ground. The whole mindset and focus is just entirely different.
I read somewhere that Jujitsu can be traced back to Kung Fu. Is there anything that suggests this is true?
Kungfu has ground fighting, it's just not as sophisticated as something like BJJ. Often it's striking someone from the ground, or taking someone down so you can get back up again, though there's still numerous jujitsu style fighting from your back type techniques. Most don't teach that kind of stuff though.
That's my impression. I agree that the goal of ground fighting in kung fu isn't to submit someone, generally speaking (basics like arm bars, chokes, sleepers, etc not withstanding), but rather to get back up and hit the person. However, as you mentioned, being able to do that requires learning how to fight from your back ala BJJ. Any mappers train in a style that practices this? My art does, but I don't count it since it is a mix of things, and not "pure" old-school kung fu.
My sifu knows a bit of groundfighting, it might help thats he's a black belt in judo and highly trained in a few other systems as well, though. Personally, he doesn't like groundfighting and says to always keep the fight standing up. Our style is a very "trade-sweat" style, and we have alot of chin na and throws that bring people to the groudn to control them, but as he says groundfighting has a few problems. One; MMA grappling, which everyone is getting in to, is done one-on-one, in a ring, with trained referees, and on a relatively cushioned mat. Not quite the same on hard pebbly cement with broken glass everywhere in an alley, wherein you might cut yourself to death before you lock a submission. Not to mention you're grapling, his friend comes along and pops you over the head with a broken bottle. This brings me to the second point; groundfighting doesn't work against groups. Against groups you need to be able to take each one out in seconds, and keep fighting only if you can't escape. If you're on the gound you're done for. Another point was size. Granted a bigger guy will almost always have the advantage over you, but in grappling (here he pointed to a 120 pound seven year student named, and a 200-something pound student) the much smaller guy can put in years and years into grappling, it'll be very difficult to beat someone bigger than he is on the ground. Whereas in stand-up kung fu, there are still ways to fight back. That said, I wouldn't mind supplementing my stand-up with a little bit of ground fighting ;D As for the original topic question, I definetly don't think most of our sifus here in America are as intricately trained as those back in China. So the systems might be a little watered down.
I think it's more that these were battlefield based modes of combat whereas there were multiple combatants on the field and rolling around on the ground for any time more than needed to finish off an opponent was asking for your own death. Jujutsu and Aikido both prefer not to be on the ground, but have techniques for dispatching the opponent while there or escaping these situations.
False. Japanese Jujutsu can be traced to the ancient form of Sumo (Sumai). Pretty much all cultures have (had) indigenous wrestling systems.
Do I really need to go into all the innaccuracies contained within this post??? Hell with it. It's obvious that there are still some serious misconceptions about "groundfighting" out there. A) I've yet to find any studio which regularly trains multiple opponents. Therefore it is just as big a problem when you stand up. There is no magic cure to being surrounded or backed up against a wall. B) "Cut yourself to death on broken glass"?!? Are you serious?!? C) His friend will pop you over the head whether you're on the ground or standing up. Irrelevant. If you're focused completely on opponent 1, you won't see opponent 2 until it's too late. And, it could be argued, you have more control from the ground if you're any good. See above. Standup isn't all that great against groups because most schools don't train it. There isn't anything inherently fantastical about stand up arts which make them the be all end all fight ender against groups. Only in movies does that happen. In real life, group fights are messy, poorly co-ordinated, and you rarely have enough room to throw a decent punch let alone pull a Chuck Norris. So unless you regularly train aginst groups, you're up the creek without a paddle, plain and simple. Size and leverage are just as important standing up as they are on the ground, a big part of it depends on the two guys involved. Blanket statements such as those you make evidence nothing but your complete lack of knowledge of groundfighting. And I know this for a fact as I've always been the smallest guy in class. Please stop with the misconceptions and blanket statements.
