LaCanne - The Vigny method.

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by StevieB8363, Jan 2, 2011.

  1. StevieB8363

    StevieB8363 Valued Member

    AFAIK there is no grappling allowed in any of the sports LaCanne. Historically, people learning LaCanne would have learned Savate and wrestling for unarmed combat. Vigny taught for a while at E.W. Barton-Wright's Bartitsu Club, which instructed people in the use of the cane, english and french boxing, as well as wrestling and jujitsu.

    I believe that Vigny intended his system to be effective against multiple opponents, so grappling and takedowns weren't a high priority in his system.
     
  2. max Chouinard

    max Chouinard Valued Member

    Yes the roof parry. Still used today actually especially for "active parries" (a parry transforming into a strike).

    This is normally what beginners in French canne are taught, helps keep the back straight and concentrate on proper hip movement. After a while people usually loose the habit and simply let it hang by their side.

    People at the Joinville military academy learned cane, greatstick, wrestling, savate, gymnastics, bayonet etc. They could have used wrestling if they wished to, which is not always the best solution for a variety of factors (their "coup de bout" is actually a very efficient method of dealing with grapplers). That said this exercise seems to be a simple parry and riposte, probably for showing the main parries. This does not represent the full possibilities of the system in any way.

    These moves are very hard to do with a stick, remember that you do not have any handguard and always need more momentum for the strike to be meaningful. Most single time strikes will instead seek to strike when the adversary is arming or by avoiding the hit and striking all at once.
     
  3. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    It would be very interresting to see the "anti closing in-techniques"!
    Yep, it's allways important to know the setting for any video.
    Yep, things are probably more dangerous without a handguard. But still, I've seen both spear, bo, glaive and other polearms without a handguard using the "ochs", that's why I asked.
     
  4. max Chouinard

    max Chouinard Valued Member

    It would be very interresting to see the "anti closing in-techniques"!It is all the coup de bout or talon. Here are some from Hebert:
    [​IMG]
    Another more developped version.
    [​IMG]

    It is much easier to control the distance with a stick than a staff, if the opponent comes too close there is a wide variety of choice to punish him.

    You will see the ochs stance used in most greatstick systems
    [​IMG]

    But as I said it is used as a "preemptive strike", never as a single time parry riposte. It would simply be impossible to have the correct angle to block and to attack without adding a move. Do you have any example of the move you mentioned?
     
  5. StevieB8363

    StevieB8363 Valued Member

    Two Handed Guard

    The two handed guard is the two-handed version of the rear guard position. Usually used with a heavier stick. Strikes are available with either or both hands.

    [​IMG]

    Since Craig Germeiner has a fully illustrated article on this guard I'll direct you there.

    A simple "X" striking pattern with a heavy stick can serve as both attack and defence from this position.
     
  6. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    My GF just thought that was me and my teacher Martin doing Hanbo (36" Japanese stick) [​IMG]

    Off topic but true.
     
  7. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Fiore spear does something that looks like the "german" parry-reposte-ochs-thingie, but I don't have any examples with sticks.

    Thanks for info, btw!
     
  8. bootfighter

    bootfighter New Member

    Stevie, you mentioned that your instructor received his la canne training from me. What would the name of your instructor be?

    All the best,

    Craig Gemeiner

    http://gemeineracademy.wordpress.com
     
  9. StevieB8363

    StevieB8363 Valued Member

    His name is Barry Albon.

    Thanks for the pics.
     
  10. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    Wow, I am in really, REALLY late to this thread. It's what I get for hanging only on the Western Martial Arts sub here (and on other forums).

    First, it's fine to link to my articles. Thanks for being specific about the origin and including links.

    Second, the Flick and the Flip are the most confusing part of the Lang system. Lang is very unclear about how they're supposed to work. I've seen at least three different competing theories on what they are or how they operate, all of them fit Lang's description. Of the key elements to interpretation is that Lang says it's good for use in tight spaces such as a railway carriage and should always be delivered off of a lunge-thrust. However, he also says that a Flick (or a Flip) can be used as a followup technique after a glancing Cut.

    It should be noted that Lang's high guard is not necessarily exactly the same as Vigny's guard. In fact, I'd hazard that they're different in that Vigny is never pictured with his arm fully extended while Lang teaches exactly that. Even in his rear guard with the empty hand being used as bait, the stick hand is partially flexed. It's a small difference, however.

    Fourth, Stolenbjorn, many believe that the Grand Baton has roots linked to Longsword work. In fact, Hutton claims that in developing his Great Stick method he deliberately drew from two-handed sword work (as well as from Quarterstaff and French stick work), though the Victorian understanding of Longsword was certainly different from current understanding.

    There was some other stuff, but I forget.

    Keep up the good work!

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  11. StevieB8363

    StevieB8363 Valued Member

    I was taught to use the flick and flip as part of a combination. Unless circumstances directed (space, angle etc) you wouldn't open with them. Their only real advantage is their unexpected angle of attack. It takes a while for someone to get used to spotting them in time. As with all techniques, it's a matter of choosing what could work at any given moment.

    Thanks for your input, and thanks for allowing the use of your pictures. It's been hard to find clear illustrations of the various strikes, and most come from very old/badly printed manuals.
     

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