LaCanne - The Vigny method.

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by StevieB8363, Jan 2, 2011.

  1. StevieB8363

    StevieB8363 Valued Member

    By coincidence, that's the only Irish stick fighting I've seen before - and it has nothing in common with LaCanne. The grip and guard are different, theirs is predominantly a close-in style from what I have seen.

    It does have a few interesting techniques though, and as the stick is a similar size these could be used by a LaCanne practitioner.

    P.S, Thanks for warning me about the sound.
  2. illumin7

    illumin7 Valued Member

    I guess it was pretty naive of me to think they were similar (I was going off of the size), but stick fighting has interested me for a while now is there any places that teach LaCanne in the Uk?
  3. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Many of the movements and stances look very similar in principle to a lot of stuff seen in HEMA sword-manuals, messer and longsword springs to mind. Very cool thread, which will be followed by me :)
  4. boards

    boards Its all in the reflexes!

    How much difference do you find between the Vigney stlye and the modern Le Canne style. The little exposure I have had to the modern style (in Italy) the strikes and guards seem very similar, especially the twirling to get speed and power. Given that you mentioned it is not as athletic, do you do many ducks under strikes as a defence?
  5. StevieB8363

    StevieB8363 Valued Member

    There's a few that teach Savate/LaCanne, but finding someone to teach you the Vigny method might be difficult. The modern, "sports" version doesn't employ the high guard.

    Yes, I was sure someone would recognise the techniques from sword systems, but I'm willing to bet few have seen a stick used in this manner. I'd be interested to hear your comments on the use of the "Grand Baton" which I will cover later.

    The primary difference (apart from rules of course) is the guard position: modern LaCanne uses a conventional "fencing" guard position. There are no thrusts allowed in the modern version, and a strike has to be proceded by a moulinet (twirl) of the stick in order to score (otherwise it would just be stick-fencing).

    Compared to the Vigny system, modern LaCanne is not only athletic, it's acrobatic. Jumps, spins, ducks etc, - none of which are used in the Vigny method. Block/deflect or pass back are the two basic options.
  6. boards

    boards Its all in the reflexes!

    Thanks for the information mate. I'm really enjoying this thread.
  7. max Chouinard

    max Chouinard Valued Member

    Just to mention that there are other ancient version of French canne, all of them using the standard tierce guard. To my knowledge Vigny is the only "French" system to use the hanging guard.

    I am currently working on some quick interpretation of many of those manuals. The oldest being Leboucher in 1843 which bears many ressemblance to modern canne (major difference being the volte and jumps as well as the higher stance). We plan on doing Leboucher, La Canne Royale and Charlemont (and maybe others).
  8. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    La Canne Royale is the name of a measurement used by Millwrights and road builders in medieval France it's about 1 and ¼ metres.

    Does the system use a cane of that length by any chance?
  9. max Chouinard

    max Chouinard Valued Member

    He never mentions the lentgh, but 1,25 metres is way too long for the walking cane he shows. This is the proper guard:

    Another version with a bit more protection:

    There is anoher treaty on its use by Cooreman but I never saw the whole thing.

    This is the whole treaty of Leboucher:


    The Bâton de Joinville or the french greatstick:

    And there are many many more. The French have probably edited more books on the stick than anybody else in the 19th century.
  10. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    Thanks for the links - I just wondered, but it's a phrase that could be used for different things at different times easily.
  11. StevieB8363

    StevieB8363 Valued Member

    Thanks to max Chouinard for the info and links.

    Indeed there are other methods, but I'm presenting the Vigny method here because it's noticeably different from most other stick arts, and I thought it may be of interest to other members. Since I have no training in other systems I'm not qualified to comment on them, apart from pointing out the obvious differences. Thanks you kindly for those links, I'll certainly be having a read.

    No, the cane is "walking stick length", obviously that will be slightly different for different people. A 3-foot stick is about right for most.
  12. StevieB8363

    StevieB8363 Valued Member

    Rear Guard


    As above, though the free hand should be held next to the face, clenched in a fist. I see no virtue in dangling it out in front of you unless you intend to draw the opponent into attacking you. The stick hand and foot are to the rear, the stick angle is maintained.

    Blocking in this position is somewhat nerve-racking, as you block very close to your head/body, but it's not a static position. One either passes forward to attack (increasing range and power), or passes backward as in the above picture. Passing back moves your body out of range, leaving the stick forward for a counter-strike.
  13. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    If their canes are 36" they are both short men. It's not anywhere the long stick I asked about before though. It there a sizing method used.
    Like for English quarterstaff the method in George Silver is to get a stick as long as you can reach from heel to hand high above your head comfortably and add on as long as you need to hold that with both hands.
  14. StevieB8363

    StevieB8363 Valued Member

    IIRC, the stick should be as long as the distance from your fingertip to centre of chest (with arm stretched to the side). In practice it depends on whether you prefer range or speed - you can choose a length that suits you best.

    In reality it's whatever you can grab - though if you were to carry a walking stick on a regular basis you would obviously select one that you could comfortably use.
  15. StevieB8363

    StevieB8363 Valued Member

    Circling Guard

    Couldn't find an illustration, but:

    The circling guard is exactly what it sounds like. From the front guard, the stick is spun in a vertical circle, coming up as it travels forward. Once the stick is spinning, it's easy to keep it going by elbow movement alone, very little wrist effort.

    Used to attack the hands, force the opponent backward, or as a feint to set up another strike.
  16. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Cambridge Academy of Martial Arts are one of the only groups that I know of who teach the sport version of La Canne (or La Canne de Combat) regularly. They also hosted the European Canne de Combat Championships in Cambridge last year. See:
  17. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    There is a mass of videos of sport Canne de Combat on YouTube. Here's one: [ame=""]YouTube - canne de combat[/ame]
  18. max Chouinard

    max Chouinard Valued Member

    No problem, its just that the way it was formulated kind of meant that Vigny was the ancestor of modern canne de combat, which it isn't. Modern cane was devised by many different schools coming together to preserve what was left of their art, not unlike Judo. Unfortunately, in many instance sit is not possible to know what ws lost in the process.

    Here is a video of Charlemenont doign canne in 1901. Very much like what Leboucher showed in 1843, the slip being used at every parade, and not that much different from modern canne: [ame=""]YouTube - 1900 Baton Fencing[/ame]

    There are today many different branches of Canne de combat.

    -The main being the federal canne, which is the more acrobatic sport version we usually see, also includes the baton fédéral; a mostly modern take on the baton de joinville, taking the concepts of modern canne, double canne (two cane fighting) and canne chausson (cane plus savate kicks).

    -Canne Lafond devised by Roger Lafond, former military instructor durign WW2: [ame=""]YouTube - Roger LaFond method of canne, baton and french boxing[/ame]

    -Canne fouet. Not very popular unfortunately, nearly dissapeared recently. It was develpped by Maurice Sarry, it is a very simple method, no moulinets, no jumps, no lunges, that is not unlike Irish stick actually.

    -Canne défense. There is not much consensus on what it constitutes, but it is a self defense oriented method of Canne de combat. Some people teach a method that has nothing to do with it, others keep close to it.

    -Bâton de Joinville. In most cases a recreation of this military style of greatstick (although many people still know it like Mr. Lafond) : [ame=""]YouTube - 2010 07 24 au 30 Stage Oléron Bâton de Joinville Partie 3[/ame]
  19. StevieB8363

    StevieB8363 Valued Member

    I never said that the Vigny system was the ancestor of modern Canne, just that it was an older, defensive style, rather than a sport-oriented system. I did not seek to imply that Vigny invented the concept of LaCanne, or that everything since was based on his work. After all, Vigny himself merely adapted known sword techniques for the stick. (In hindsight I probably should have said an older style, not the older style in my OP.)

    It's interesting to see that in the Charlemont link you provide the guard is conventional, but the man on the right is blocking from the hanging guard. They also keep the free hand behind the back.The greatstick video you provide is interesting too - slightly different from what I have learned.
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2011
  20. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Interresting to see that greatstick-video.
    It's not allowed to enter into grappeling-mode in this system?

    The first technique looks like halfswording with longsword, but without the closing in.

    The second technique resembles the weak response to a bind, but again without the closing in. Sometimes, it looks like they're doing the "ochs" (parry and thrust in one move).

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