Kyokushin or MMA?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by yingyangzen, Sep 30, 2012.

  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    The bold type highlights my point. It's not just the techniques that make BJJ or GJJ effective against a single opponent, it's the conditioning, resistant training and tactics taught to be able to apply those techniques under pressure that are of equal importance to the techniques themselves. Something that no amount of kata or acrobatic prowess could prepare you for.
     
  2. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Ok, that's a whole different kettle of fish!
     
  3. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    This might give another view on the one hit one kill concept.


    http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/jigen-ryu-swordsmanship
     
  4. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Regarding Oyama and the bull fighting -

    They were animals lined up for slaughter and were relatively tame (as are many of those you see the matadors fight as well). However, it still doesn't discount how dangerous it was. Oyama was gored once and spent 6 months in the hospital recuperating after a fight with a bull.

    Oyama worked on a farm as a child and knew how to control a bull by the horns, and from there managed to wrestle it to the ground. This also helped him realize the weakest spot of the horns and he did manage to actually break off some horns using his hands. It's similar to breaking a baseball bat: If you don't get it right at the weak spot, you won't break it. Some claim those horns were pre-cut, but there's no real evidence supporting it or of someone agreeing to it who was close to Oyama. Reportedly he wrestled 52 of them, knocked off horns off of the majority of them, and killed 3. Staged or not, I wouldn't want to be next to a bull I'm smacking in the head and wrestling and hoping he's just going to stay all nice and tame. Apparently he stopped after he got a lot of complaints from animal rights organizations and realized it probably wasn't the nicest thing. Obviously we'll never know all of the facts but the guy still fought bulls bare-handed for goodness sakes.
     
  5. yingyangzen

    yingyangzen Valued Member

    I'd like to think that those of us who have spent years condition the hands and feet on stones, trees and Makiwara boards should be able to put someone down pretty damn quick when hitting vital areas. Or maybe in a perfect world...

    Speed = power does it not...so applied with skill and accuracy when going from one opponant to the next one might be deemed successful in the art of survival.. Then again I could be totally wrong..

    In the bronx everything is so gang related no one is coming by themselves and in the many times I have fought more than one person at a time in all honesty I survived just by out fighting my opponants eventually they get tired and give up but rest assured thats not the only time it will happen unfortuntely.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012
  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I've bolded the important part.
    It was the important part of why the Gracie's could tap people out consistantly.
     
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    ...If you can pull them off, yes I'm sure you would. But you need the tactics to deal with the group in the first place.

    Speed does not equal power. Fast strikes are not necessarilly powerful strikes.

    It is the way you go from one opponent to the next, and how you deal with it when more than one is in striking range that is important.

    Some things actually work better with multiple opponents; feints can be used to greater effect, and the footwork of a group is almost always more clumsy than that of an individual. It takes skill and practice to attack as a group, as well as defend yourself from one.

    Still, it sounds like you've done alright so far :)
     
  8. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    yingyangsen, please curb the use of bad language.

    4.1 Profanity:
    While we understand that most of our members are grown adults, we do also have young adults and children that visit MAP. Further, many people are offended by vulgar language. If you feel you must swear to get your point across, then please do it elsewhere.
    4.1.1 This includes attempts to disguise profanity by using *s to mask letters or by the use of acronyms and abbreviations.
     
  9. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Personally I think the only arts that really address multiple opponents effectively are the filipino ones.
    In other words...if you have to fight more than one person then you're better off with an equaliser of some sort.
    Of course using a weapon also requires the support skills of striking, grappling, footwork, angling, etc etc.
     
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Exactly, you train for what you want to use it for, and adapt your tactics appropriately (including researching competing athletes to adapt your tactics to their game).

    If they were to start 4-against-1 MMA matches, I'm sure within a few years there would be plenty of sound multiple opponent startegies seaping throughout the MA community, because by necessity people would be developing tactics for it and learning from experience.

    As it is, almost all multiple opponent "training" I've seen in the MAs is trying to fight many opponents as you would one, as a dodgy afterthought to a system, optimistic choreography, or downright lies - like the Master defeating a dozen attackers, as long as they politely attack one-at-a-time.
     
  11. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Mark 19 Ryu is pretty effective against multiple opponents.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onyplCJHTZs&feature=related"]MK-19 Automatic Grenade Launcher - YouTube[/ame]
     
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    ...and a legitimate reason for carrying and using that weapon if it's in a SD context.
     
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    :D

    A bit difficult to justify in court though.

    I'm not sure even the "judged by twelve or carried by six" brigade would think that's reasonable force.
     
  14. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    What weapon?

    The good thing about being an eskrimador is that you can use what is to hand. Phone, keys, bag, all of the skills are transferable, even if you are emptyhanded.
     
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    In many ways I've always though that fighting multiples boils down to a few basic rules.

    1: Chin down.
    2: Hands up.
    3: Hit anyone that comes near you.
    4: Keep moving.
    5: Don't fall over.
    6: Repeat 1-5 until there aren't any people left to hit.
     
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I agree, and was thinking along the same lines when I wrote that.
     
  17. yingyangzen

    yingyangzen Valued Member

    @ harrison, thanks = ) ok now explain to me why Speed wouldnt equal power? the faster something is moving the harder it should hit correct? For example lets say the speed of a bullet moves at, it goes through whatever it hits because of speed right? So if our hands are conditioned properly when applied with speed and accuracy power should be implemented should it not?
     
  18. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    No.

    Hand conditioning has nothing to do with it, and you should know that power is not generated through fast hands.
     
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    To a degree. But you need weight behind it too.
    You can flick a backfist out very fast and only really annoy someone if you hit them.
    Or you can systematically build power through the body from the legs up and really hit hard but that will be slower than the flicky backfist because multiple systems have to be recruited.
     
  20. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    As I demonsatrated at the MAP Meet. Deliberately fast to get a reaction, but it wouldn't do much damage.

    It's what comes next that does the damage.
     

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