Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by SPX, Aug 3, 2010.

  1. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

  2. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    I can see what you mean and have no problems with it. But the bottom line is that what TKD could be and was (maybe) supposed to be is something completely different from what it IS.

    I wouldn't have a problem with it if it were like it claimed to be. But the things that it actually IS, here and now, I have a problem with (usually).
  3. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    It's not an unresolvable problem, though.
  4. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Its not. but I tihnk if it WERE to become what you wanted it to be, then you couldn't call it TKD anymore - because the original crap has claim to that name.
  5. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

    I think one of the problems is a misconception of what being a martial artist or a martial arts instructor is.

    In most of the sports world (to use sports as an example) you have an elite level athlete component. In the U.S., for example, you have the NFL which are elite level athletes who get paid lots of money for their skill. Then you have college level athletes who get scholarships and may, one day, be in the NFL. Then you have high school and on down the line. You also have coaches at all those levels as well. For whatever reason no one is to surprised that there is a bit of a difference between the high school coach and the NFL player.

    You can say the same for wrestling. Plenty of good high school wrestlers who would find themselves owned at the NCAA wrestling tournament (particularly if they were past their competitive years).

    For whatever reason martial arts (and artists) have had this different mystique about them that make this common sense suddenly void. If a guy isn't an elite level athlete who could jump into the ring with Couture and hold his own he is a 'sham'. Yet I've had coaches in other sports who might have a heart attack if they were to jump on the field even if they were playing us high schoolers. Yet they were good coaches and more important they were willing to take the responsibility to try to 'teach the next generation the game'. Yeah they got money for it through the school system, whatever, but most of them just did it for the love of coaching.

    And lets face it...when it comes down to it the average MA instructor is basically the same as a youth coach. Yeah we tie a belt around their waist (rather than the coach's cap) but that is essentially what you do.

    So I'm always amazed by all freaking out on both sides of this issue. It seems to be much ado about nothing. I've been to Korea/China three times on martial arts tours and the attitude is much different there. They seem to think much more in the 'coach' vein rather than the hollywood perception of a martial artist. This, btw, has its good an bad side. Because they will often say things like, "Oh. You are still play that? We have our kids do that..." Much like we raise an eyebrow when someone is obsessed with playing in their softball league even though they are older saying, "Haven't they outgrown that yet????"

  6. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    I think that WTF and ITF TKD are dissimilar enough that, at least on the surface, they don't even look like the same style. And truly, there are a lot of differences, not only in the competition rules, but also in the way that certain techniques are done.

    However, they come from the same place and the core technique set is still the same, so they're both "TKD." The real difference, if you notice, is not the techniques but in the way they're utilized.

    Personally, I think that high level ITF is so close. I mean, I've seen dan-level ITF matches that look very similar to an ISKA kickboxing match. So in my view, it would take just a little push and, as I've said before, utilization of professional training methods, and TKD would be a perfectly viable combat sport. It would just take, again, a little modifcation in the way the techniques are utilized.

    It would still be TKD, though.
  7. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Sadly you are right. It is not what it was and that is not what it is today in far too many places.
    turning it around requires an understanding of where it was, how & why it was developed. Then the training must reflect the realism required to be more than just a baby sitting activity &/or a money making operation that only gives out fluff
  8. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Nice post, but I would add that the MAs have become so watered down, that TMAs are rarely more than McDojos, set up to make money & sell fluff. There are many reasons for this, but sadly we have generations of instructors who have come up without any toughness what so ever. Insurance regs, karate kid movies, ninja turtles, ADD/ADHD, broken homes, weakened society and looser value systems have turned many TMA school into nothing more than baby sitting services that teach kiddies to say yes sir & thank you ma'am, or swaet a tiny bit, losing weight ir at least keeping them away from TV & computer screens for 45 minutes a coupe of times a week.
    The weakening of TMAs, led by TKD, as they are the world's most popular MA, with Korea dispatching college educated TKD masters around the world to teach, to make money & spread Korean culture. The ROK has even graduate level academic courses where one can earn an academic masters or PhD degree in TKD sports science. Since the key to making oney in any business is to grow your customer base & retain them, they take in all kinds of students of all ages & don't let them quit by promoting all regardless of effort & ability.
    As that became more & more common, MMAs came on the scene. 1st it was combat karate in the 70s, now it is MMA. So tough people who want to mix it up, shy away from TMAs & seek refuge in MMA, the combat system of today
  9. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    The original wasn't crap, it's much of the current which is the problem. You'd simply be reinstating it to its former glory.

  10. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    It seems to me that all TMAs have become watered down due to commericalism, invasion of the children BBs & safety requirements. This is a reason why the MMA scene has grown.

    Just to be clear:

    What most of the world knows today to be Taekwondo was 1st called Tae Soo Do.

    The minority, that is often called ITF TKD was devised in the military of Korea as a KMA for SD. It too has been watered down. but it was always called TKD, from 1955 forward.

    The Tae Soo Do guys were in the civilian world, lacked the numbers that the military had & centered or united around a set of sports sparring rules, little else. They pushed these rules so their Korean martial sport would be different than the karate rule set & it was, vastly different & still is. So their sport was uniquely Korean & it is. But it was called TaeSuDo & appeared 1st at the Korean National Sports Festival in 1962, a very prestigous, ling running major fesitval in Korea, which predates the splitting of Korea into 2 nations! It was spread to academic schools & universities the nest year (1963) & continued its expansion under the guidance of the K Tae Soo Do Assoc. It was not till 1965 that they adopted Gen Choi's name TKD, that he used since 1955. It was at his insistence & prodding that they used the name. It was a big deal & a big bone of contention with much fighting. Suppossedly he won by 1 vote.
    They did not however adopt his style. So in 1966, as he was a trouble maker in their eyes, he was forced out & created the ITF, concentrating on the international expansion of his TKD, not their TaeSuDo.

    So the world now has 2 different acitivites using the same name. very confusing indeed. Even more so when you consider that mank Korea karate schools also use the popular name of TKD as well.
    It should be the:
    ITF = International Taekwon-Do Federation, the governing body for KMA of SD, called Taekwon-Do, a MA

    WTF = World Tae Soo Do Federation, the governing body for the Korean martial sport of Tae Soo Do, so successful it has gained Olympic sport status

    Gen Choi's poor leadership style, the bad way he treated some people, he outspoken critic of a series of brutal military dictators all contributed to his downfall. When he engaged in the unforgiven anti national activity by going to NK in 1979, then introducing original TKD there in 1980, allowed them to blacklist him as a communist & traitor, almost destroying him & his loyal followers, through an agressive worldwide campaign by the KCIA, until NK stepped in to support him & the ITF & balance the support SK gave to the WTF. It was so bad that in SK today, many if not most look at ITF TKD as NK TKD, thinking they devised it, not even realizing it was developed in SK by a ROK army general. Fortunately the truth is now free to come out, as SK is no longer controlled by dictators
  11. HugfanOSU

    HugfanOSU New Member

    I know this thread is old, but I just have to say something on this.

    This is hilarious. You've got a bunch of forum fanboys talking like they actually know what the hell they're talking about. LOL at Master Betty. Really? You GUARANTEE that?

    [ame=""]YouTube - ‪Kwonkicker (TKD, 55kg) vs Tahlon (Muay Thai, 63kg) - Pro Fight‬‏[/ame]

    Looks to me like he DID fight professionally in Thailand... using only TKD... against a Thai... who had much more pro fight experience than him... who was also 8kg heavier than him... and yet Kwonkicker still KO'd him with a TKD kick. And that MOI guy is totally right. Kwonkicker and his "Fantasies". LMAO.

    This is why forums are trash for researching anything. They are full of a bunch of weekend warrior "Joes" who think they know fighting because they watch UFC and go to "Mooey Tai" class twice a week. Meanwhile dudes like Kwonkicker actually do something with their lives.

    TMA's are just as powerful if trained properly as Muay Thai. Guys like Kwonkicker, Steve Vick, Keiji Ozaki, Cyrus Washington, and Andy Hug back in the day, prove it. So quit your b*tching and go learn how to kick.
  12. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Hi Micah...nice to have you on board. Are you currently training in Thailand?
  13. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    nice turning kick :cool:

    I notice his shorts say Tiger Muay Thai - which if I'm not mistaken is a camp in Phuket (think they quite have a touristy rep but not too sure) I'd assume he's been training there?
  14. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    It is. They're probably the biggest tourist muay thai camp.
  15. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Actually Betty's a professional fighter and coaches for a living, if I recall correctly.
    Yeah, but by and large, they don't. When they do it generally amounts to the same thing.
    Also, TKD isn't a TMA. It's relatively young. Muay Thai is a TMA and is very old. I think you've got a bit of a chip on your shoulder.
  16. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    First off, although that IS in Thailand, it's not against a professional fighter. Yes, the fight may be paid which makes it, strictly speaking, a professional fight, but that thai is clearly not a fighter who makes a living from it. He's a hobby fighter who trains and fights for fun. The statement "I am going to go and fight professionally in Thailand" carries with it the heavy implication that you're going to fight people who FIGHT FOR A LIVING. This guy didn't.

    And since I heartily believe you to be Kwonkicker, stop blowing smoke up your own butt by comparing yourself to Andy Hug OR saying that that fight was using purely TKD. You're clearly training there, that much is obvious to us "keyboard warriors" (who also fight btw) and you clearly fight in a compeltely muay thai style. Because you know if you go in there and try to use a predominantly TKD style you'll get raped in the bum.

    grow up a wee bit man.
  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    And that wasn't a TKD was "clearly crocodile lashes its tail" (or whatever a spinning back kick in Thai is called) from Muay Boran. :)
  18. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Also, are you trying to imply the Thai in the fight is anything resembling pro grade? I know what the video says and it may well be a pro fight, technically, but it really doesn't prove much. With that showing I'd be very confident in (EDIT:either fighter's) [Kwon's] place and frankly I really suck at striking in general.

    Face it, he got himself a feeder and felt him out with thai boxing until he knew he wasn't in any danger, then threw one of the few strengths of TKD as a whole to put him down, and everyone who has any idea about striking can see it clear as day. The vitriol in your post only makes you look ignorant and hateful when that's all you've got to support it.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2011
  19. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

    I'm personally impressed. You said you'd go to Thailand and fight and you did it (be it amateur, semi-pro, or whatever). Come on people. How many of you actually expected a video of him in Thailand to be coming our way all those months ago?"

    Best of luck to you in following your dream.
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Saying "just TKD" is blatantly false as he was using "standard" MT for 90% of the fight.

    Good on him for doing it though - so rare you see anyone walking the walk

Share This Page