Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by SPX, Aug 3, 2010.

  1. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    Depends on what you're calling mid-level. Mid-level how? Where? Mid-level in the UFC? Mid-level of all MMA fighters in the world?

    Dan Hardy, while not a TKD fighter in the same sense that Machida is a Shotokan fighter, has still talked a lot about his TKD background and how he has learned a lot about the standup game from it. Is Dan Hardy mid-level when he fights in the top MMA promotion in the world and just fought for the championship? And yes, he got beat, but he got beat on the ground.

    I think the best example of a real TKD guy who had done well in MMA is Lukasz Jurkowski, though. Again, most losses have come on the ground. He's not quite UFC calibur, I don't think, but the guy is solid.
  2. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    sorry to rain on your parade but dan hardy doesn't fight using anything like TKD and oh look! he's trained in muay thai! now why would he want to do that when h'es apparently learned all the awesome standup skills of fighting in a full contact arena under TKD?

    Lol. just Lol.

    And as I said before: these guys are very few and far between and frankly, there's a reason for that. Especially with TKD being the most practiced martial art in the world, if all arts being equal and all that psuedo philosophical crap, then the law of probability would suggest a far larger contingency of these so called uber leet TKD fighters in MMA than is actually represented.

    And point is: Dan Hardy is flat out lying about so called TKD fight experience simply to keep all the fans who watch him, simply because he did TKD, happy. the reason? I'd wager most of his fans are people who do TKD themselves and would have no interest in him if he hadn't trained in TKD.

    The same thing can be said of Machida and karate. It's the guaranteed reason why he won the first fight with Machida. nothing to do with the actual fight and everything to do with the fact that these peopel make more money off the fans than they do from the fight themselves. Keep Machida the champion and the UFC keeps a whole bunch of karate fans who wouldn't normally have anything to do with it. Dan keeps going on about his awesome TKD and he keeps a whole bunch of fans interested who normally wouldn't be, simply because of the TKD aspect.
  3. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    I think I take a kinder, gentler approach with people sometimes.

    I mean, let's assume his TKD credentials are legit. If that were me, and I knew what I had accomplished in that arena, someone could go to hell if they wanted to tell me that I wasn't qualified to teach someone how to do a hook kick or whatever.

    As for kickboxing, he seems to know where he's at. He makes no claims to having won any fights, only that he wants to fight and is going to fight. Rather than trying to tear the guy down, it seems we should be supportive.

    But truthfully, many MTers (not saying you; just in general) seem to hate TKDists and look for every opportunity they can to take shots at them. It gets old.
  4. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Supportive? I'll arrange his first fight for him. September/October be OK?

    They don't hate it just look upon it a lightweight. Personally I quite like it for what it is
  5. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Lol I do hate it. Maninly because I feel that I wasted a few years of my life on it getting told I was learning how to fight and getting a whole load of hypocritical bullcrap lectured to me all the time about how they respect other martial arts whilst in the same breath going on about how TKD is the best.

    To any who think I don't have reason for my hatred - TKd was my first martial art. I trianed in it when I was a kid. Then again for a few years when I was about 18. Waste of time. Especially at my old club AIMAA where they quite openly said that no matter WHO you train with, AIMAA has the best coaches in the world with "master" ameris and "grandmaster" cho. I actualy cant type enough lols at that. Especially since I trained with ameris once and after 5 years of thai boxing, can quite honestly say that my unassuming coach (he was a joiner when i started, now a project manager) would knock ten kinds of crap out of the great "master" ameris.
  6. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    I mean, whatever dude. You're right. Dan Hardy's just a liar with an agenda. Nevertheless, here's what he said. I'm going to post this article and you, and anyone else, can take it for what it's worth.

    Oh, and BTW, I never said he didn't study other fighting styles. This is MMA after all. Don't be retarded.

  7. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    Here's a TKD MMA fighter:

    [ame=""]YouTube- Lukasz Jurkowski Taekwondo MMA Fighter[/ame]
  8. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

  9. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    Does anything positive ever come out of your mouth of do you just like to pick fights?
  10. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    What you're doing is posting exceptions to the norm. TKD is probably the most practised martial art in the world. Why aren't MMA comps flooded with TKD guys?
  11. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    Don't get me wrong, I NEVER said that most TKD fighters can fight. Nor did I say that TKD is the best martial art in the world. I believe that TKD can be effective . . . IF it's trained effectively. Most TKDists are hobbyists, pure and simple, and don't train for full contact competitions.

    I believe that the guys who DO make it are the guys who figure out that they're going to have to put real power into their techniques, will have to square up their stance, will have to learn to throw and defend against leg kicks, elbows, etc.

    If we're talking about MMA, they'll have to learn to defend against takedowns, obviously, and will need to pick up some ground skills if the fight does hit the ground.

    I really believe that the problem isn't TKD, but rather the way TKD is trained. Apply standard kickboxing training methods and the style will adapt well to the ring, or apply standard MMA training methods and it will adapt to the cage.

    Bear in mind, however, that I do feel this is generally going to be easier for ITF guys than for WTF guys.
  12. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    I love watching TKD fought well. ITF that is. Oh for a TKD gym
  13. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    It's not impossible to throw out the old TKD techniques in teh r1ng: [ame=""]YouTube- [] Serkan Yilmaz Highlight #1[/ame]
  14. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    Well, we agree.
  15. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    I'd be worried fighting an ex-TKDers as those spinning kicks are nasty and do have a habit of connecting real sweet out of nowhere
  16. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    The problem, for me, the real personal issue I have with what you're saying there though is that, not only is it a commonly raised opinion, but it's completely ignoring the fact that what it's basically saying is "TKD can be effective if it does a whole bunch of things that aren't TKD".

    I agree with Moi - I just wish they'd get rid of some of the sillier rules and give it a decent scoring criteria. Hell while we're at it iI'd love it if they cut out the bull crap about tenets and all that jazz - let's be truly 100% honest - nobody lives their lives by those tenets. Changing all those things would make them change the way they train and adapt techniques in a way which suits and remains TKD rather than becoming another martial art. This however, is a point I've raised before so I don't wanna go into it any farther tbh.

    Suffice to say that my original statement is 100% fact and can be taken as true since I both competed in TKD and currently fight at professional thai boxing.

    TKD experience don't mean jack in the Thai ring. It's like sending the English football team in against the All Blacks for a game of rugby union.
  17. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Except of course that those things are TKD, as you'd know if you knew more about how the style should be and historically was.

  18. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    What it should be and what it is are clearly two separate things.
  19. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    I think it's important to not confuse the style itself with the training methods that are commonly employed in today's hobbyist schools. I mean, the North Korean military trains their soldier in taekwon-do, but they undoubtedly do it differently than your local shopping mall school. Does that mean that they're not both taekwon-do? Of course not.

    I also think it's important to not confuse the style with the ruleset for officially sanctioned sporting competition. If someone interested in kickboxing trained in TKD, learning the patterns, perfecting the kicks, etc. but geared that training for full contact kickboxing, then is it not still TKD?

    Everyone has an idea about WHAT taekwon-do is. Yours has very clearly been shaped by what, from what I can gather, was your experience in a fairly typical WTF school. Personally, I just see TKD, ultimately, as a collection of fighting techniques and principles that can be applied in a number of ways and that, as times change, will evolve.

    Even Gen. Choi said somewhere--I think it was in the encyclopedia--that he expected TKD to be dynamic and to change over time as new ideas about combat rise to the surface.

    Ultimately, I also feel like fighting is fighting. A fighter's individual style will show itself in little ways here and there. If you know what to look for, you can tell that Machida is a Shotokan guy and that Alves is an MT guy. Dennis Siver looks a little different from both these guys, as he comes from a European kickboxing background. But the differences are subtle and the commonalities are a much more plentiful.
  20. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    What it should be and what it is in some places are two separate things.

    There's good and bad, same as anything else. You know yourself about the nonsense that gets passed off as MT these days, you've even commented that much of what is called MT in MMA circles isn't.

    TKD is only going to show the level of intensity of training of MT or MMA gyms in clubs where they train people to compete. The training schedule of WTF guys was posted on here recently and it was at least as tough as most MMA competitors, according to at least one MMA competitor.

    TKD is only going to show the level of practicality of MT or MMA at clubs where they train for that wider ruleset. But that doesn't make it anything other than TKD.

    I teach some of my students to spar heavy/full contact with low kicks and limited grappling. They hit hard, have fun, learn lots and it's all TKD :)


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