Hey Peoples, For those of you that dont know i practice laugar (no jokes!) and after watching the olympic matches im intrigued. I know tkd does have blocks using hands but i saw little to none in the olympics. They just went at each other with there legs and impressive though it was, i couldnt help thinking, block it and put him down! Now being a lowly orange sash i have yet to learn any high kick blocks. So im wondering from the members of the various styles of kung fu on here, has anyone sparred/fought with a tkd practioner and what was the result? Did they use any blocks with hands or even attack with hands? Thanks for your insights. Lee
IME no they didn't & lots of it was they didn't know how or if they did, it was a rudimentary level without a good grasp of hands. On the other hand... most of them kicked like mules on steroids...
In kickboxing, i've sparred and fought with many a TKD practitioner. Great legs, don't have a clue how to use their hands. Most didn't do very well in kickboxing apart from a number of exceptions and they mixed it with western boxing.
when I'd fight in comps against tkd heads I'd get in close as quick as loss to shorten their distance. Afaik, I might be getting mixed up. WTF is no hands, but ITF uses hands. IMO the tkd in the olympics was crap. Really boring.
Olympic TKD is a bit of a funny beast. Although 1 point is awarded for kicks or punches to the body it is difficult to judge whether the punch had any stopping power. This could just mean that they can't punch very well.
Competitors in olympic style TKD at an international level are athletes who are well trained for the specialized rules that they compete under. The lack of punching to the face and head coupled with how difficult it is to score with a punch at all (even though the rules state they should score) has created habits for winning the game. They will generally rely on their mobility and footwork rather than blocking for defense. Many competitiors will hold their hands low to check the chambers for kicks since this is the primary danger of being scored upon. These are sport players who excel at a game and to excel at any game/sport, your training needs to reflect what is going to be effective for you to win under that context. There is a difference between where the olympic sport of TKD has evoled to and where it's second cousin, the combative martial art of TKD is at. TKD the martial art has a strong arsenal of hand techniques and in many schools punching and blocking is emphasized nearly as much as kicking, sometimes even more. TKD (the combative system) also includes knee and elbow strikes, sweeps and takedowns, jointlocks and manipulations and most of the other techniques you would see in virtually any other combat art. A major problem is that with the emphasis of so many schools on the sport versions (IMO the point sparring version of the ITF and it's spin offs have just as much of a downside as the WTF version. At least the WTF version is full contact. Both versions have benefits, but both can create very bad habits for real fights or self defense) is that you are seeing a lot less of the the combative art out there. Pre-olympic judo went through this same process and while the martial/combat art of judo was a very effective system, it's nearly impossible in most areas to find any schools that teach it. It's virtually extinct in it's original form while the combative system of TKD is almost ready for the endangered species list. Since this is on the CMA forum, let me put it this way. Many TKD practitioners look at olympic TKD as a representation of how they would fight as how many CMA practitoners would view the performance art of wushu as a representation of how you would fight. There might be a recognition of the skill of the athletes and even a recognition of what they do as members of the "family", but usually a distinction as being a different branch of said family. Like the PR of China has pushed for their sport version of wushu to be accepted and given prominence, the Korean gov't has done the same with omympic style TKD. I've seen this happen first hand as this situation has evolved. I was competing on an international level in what has become olympic TKD in my teens. My instructor and some of my older classmates/peers won medals in the WTF world championships back in the '70's and even the olympics ('92). Back in the late '70's and early '80's, pre-olympic sport TKD was far less specialized and though there was the (IMO lame) rule of no punching to the head, it was far closer to the "full contact" rules used in kickboxing. Your goal was to knock out the opponent rather than slap the hogu (chest protector) with a weak round or cut kick to amke it pop so you can score. Most competitors kept their hands up or they got knocked out. Besides a huge percentage of us were also fighting in that new sport, full contact karate (now called kickboxing) as well. A very decent percentage cross trained in boxing, too. From these roots, I have moved on/evolved into MMA, but I still remember my TKD roots and am willing to set the record straight and will especially defend the combative art of TKD...if you can still find it.
Let's see... I started TKD in 1981. It was a martial art then. It was scary to a lot of people at tournies I went to because besides our feet, we could actually use our hands as well. It was a pretty well rounded style at the time. Times changed... TKD went from martial art to foot fighting with a secondary use of hands in forms that never quite made sense to me watching them & getting explanations when I could from people to foot flipping & Olympic glory. The PRC at least with wushu never downplayed hands or feet. They just removed the combat element & added in gymnastics & aesthetics. That's why San da (San Shou) is considered a separate thing. They do hardly any (if at all) practice of sets, they condition & fight. Hands, feet, knees, elbows & throws at full contact all the time. Nothing wrong with it as it is now or was then. I just think that the ROK has taken TKD from what it was to what it is & it's for the worse. The PRC has done the same thing with CMA, except that you find most traditional practitioners of CMA are quick to illustrate the line between modern wushu & traditional wushu. Traditional wushu we fight, we have forms, etc... None looks as good as the exclusive forms or fighting people but we do both & strive to do it well. Since I left TKD in the early 90's, I have yet to find a single TKD school that practiced TKD as I did back then. Now they all foot flip. They hit like mules when/if they hit you but that's all they have now. No hands, no ranging, no foot work to make things work out... just foot flipping.
When I did tkd (15 years ago), at least where I studied, it was nothing like what you see in the Olympics. One of the first things we learnt was to keep our hands up. Like Kwan Jang said the competitions were different too. There was no punching to the head but it was full contact continuous fighting. Lots of people got knocked out and punching to the body was common. Very few people bounced. I can't remember a single person in my club bouncing although I do recall some people bouncing in competition. Most people actually also learnt judo as well. The guy I learnt off was 8th dan TKD 7th dan Judo. Since leaving TKD I never paid any attention to it until this Olympics. I was in shock. I have seen the odd comment about TKD being point fighting on here and I wondered what people were talking about. Now I know.
After a few dozen full-force roundhouse kicks to the forearms in a single bout, I think you'll start appreciating why the Olympic TKD competitors prefer to play with range to avoid the roundhouse kicks instead of trying to block them with the forearm. The roundhouse kicks of an experienced TKD practitioner may look fast-but-floppy over broadcast television, but there's a ton of power behind them. The only effective way I've learned to block a roundhouse kick without damaging your arm in the process is to move in and forcefully strike the UPPER leg--a stop hit. If you strike the lower leg with your forearm, you're going to get hurt; that's just physics. Problem is, a stop-hit to the upper leg sure looks like a punch below the belt to most judges, and punches below the belt are illegal in Olympic TKD.
I've been doing combat oriented TKD and Hapkido for the majority of my life and I'll have to agree with the other posts that it is indeed a different animal from what you see in the Olympics. No disrespect intended mind you, they train very hard and are very good at the "game" they play. But as previous posts have said anytime you move from a, for lack of a better word ,street focus to a sport focus much of the original effectiveness is lost. And a well executed round house kick can indeed deliver a great deal of power, easily winding an opponent. Cracking a rib and ko's from a well executed round house are not uncommon. A good defense is stepping out of the kicks power arc and countering, roundhouses tend to focus their power on a 45% turn, once out of that arc the kick looses power quickly. I'm a fan of the sidethrust and hook kick myself but thats a whole nother topic :evil: To answer the original post in a bit of reverse, in our style of TKD we do use a great deal of hand techniques and blocks easily rivaling our kicking, also locks and take downs from Hapkido play a big role.
Muay Thai roundhouse > Chambered TKD roundhouse in terms of power. And I don't see the Thais complaining about pain.
Actually I've got an Olympic style TKD 3rd Black as a student now. He's been a student of CLF for about 2 years now. His hands rain havoc when tied with his kicks & yeah his kicks suck to get hit with... if I'm dumb enough to stay at his range, not mine. The only effective way I've learned is to stay where it can't be used, which is inside & close. But then again, I don't practice TKD in any fashion any longer. So for me playing by the Olympic or any other TKD governing body rule set isn't so much of a worry ... :evil:
True. This leads to a lot of clinching in TKD sparring, which in turn leads to some members of this forum whining on the internet that TKD is no fun to watch and stupid and they just stand around hugging each other (not in this thread, but in the "Martial arts in the Olympics" thread).
