Kung Fu Video Thread

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Su lin, May 27, 2007.

  1. nready

    nready Verifying DMI pool....

    I have been without someone to train with for about 2 years now at all. So I have doubts that I will be able to fight very well. The shuai jiao like I said I am not a teacher at all it just is not who I am, so I might be able to pull of some throws but it would take a while to get back to where I would be proficient again with throwing.

    I unlike most of the people on here did not have much of a choice in the style I studied. It was hard to find someone from the traditional systems of Chinese Martial arts, not that at the time I new this just went with the first guy that showed real knowledge. Personally wish I had studied some thing like Monkey kung fu or something like bjj or wrestling. I don't think there was any schools in the mid west at that time that had bjj.
     
  2. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Nice video of Xu Xiang Dong, top level wushu master performing Eagle fist and Drunken Sword forms:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3JnrH8smu0"]Xu Xiang Dong in Paris (France, 1992) - Wushu - Old School - YouTube[/ame]
     
  3. steel fingers

    steel fingers Valued Member

    BTDT :bang:
     
  4. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Julian, you need to learn to live and let live - it will help your blood pressure more.

    Now, what I don't get - seriously - I know you have this thing about traditional is better and all, but do you think your eagle is better than that? Seriously?
     
  5. steel fingers

    steel fingers Valued Member

    My blood pressure is fine thanks for the consideration.

    Do I think my eagle is better than that Seriously now - I dont do modern wu shu eagle claw so how can I be compared to that. Bit of a silly question really Firequan, you are comparing apples and bannanas.

    It is not a comparison.

    by the way what happend to your formal education...you seem to be slipping a bit old chap :p
     
  6. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned


    You can't.
     
  7. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    It's because of this kind of stuff that you get called "troll." It would be very easy for someone to misinterpret what you've just said. I'm not jumping your case for it, just letting you know.
     
  8. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Well, I'll be clearer then - I don't think a Western, amatuer athlete can ever hope to compare levels with a top level Chinese (because they have all the resources, expertise, facillities, etc.), professional athlete.

    I'm not sure that in any other sport that that would be a controversial thing to say. Sadly, in kung fu, we have to accpet cognitively dissonant ideas such as "traditional forms train you for fighting", when we all know it isn't true.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2008
  9. steel fingers

    steel fingers Valued Member

    No your right FireQ, I cant and I dont compare my self to professional wu shu athletes, I never have but you do.

    For me, I do have access, to resources, expertise, facillities, etc.maybe thats why I am a proffesional at what I do. I never said Forms teach you to fight, I only ever said they are a component of traditional martial arts training methodolgy.

    Focus on your Yi
     
  10. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Thank you - I will.

    You know, Julian, you have to consider your own words, and where they lead to. I clearly posted "top level WUSHU performer doing eagle claw" - but you decided to make an issue even out of that, lol.

    As for what "professional" means, it means, in the sense that I use it, that someone is paid to practice and become better in their own level at wushu - actually paid a wage by a sports authority or team to be a professional competitor.

    What I don't mean is someone who is paid to teach martial arts -that's a different kind of professional. Like most people in the West, me as well, you're an amatuer, so you would have a very difficult time achieving the same kind of level as a Chinese pro, just as any amatuer in any field would. The difference, of course, is that he could do your forms better than you, but you couldn't do his better than him. So then the question is, could you fight with yours better than him?

    If you can't, then what is really superior about what you do? Is it just a museum piece?
     
  11. Su lin

    Su lin Gone away

    Oh wow, I go on holiday for a week and this is what happens. Don't descend into petty squabbles guys,it isn't very becoming.

    I'm going to sleep now and come back and see what has gone on while I have been away!
     
  12. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned


    Well, just a note on that, Julian, because I can't stand disingenuity in CMA - it's a curse that ruins our beloved art. You compare yourself to wushu all the time by criticising it and asserting your superiority over it. So really, you, of course, started that comparison - I just question the conclusion you come to from it.
     
  13. steel fingers

    steel fingers Valued Member

    Fireq

    Thanks for taking the time to make yourself clear on what is and what is not proffesional. I am glad you will focus more, it will help

    It is the perpetuated myth that wu shu - modern competition and traditional combat based chinese arts are one and the same thing - that is causing disparity. I dont compare modern and traditional as the same thing. Modern evolved out of the coumminst revolution and the view of Mao that comrade should not fight comrade. So competition routines were created. They have been systematically designed to have little or no body mechanics that generate destructive impact power.

    Two people can of course if they have a reasonable level of CMA skill emulate an others performance but they cannot do or equal them in ability because the fundamental training methods and body mechincs are different. To be specific the eagle claw grip or hand shape shown in wu shu performance has little to not practical usage ability becuase all the joints are missaligned. So they could not use the eagle grip in the way I do or be able to apply in my way, I could however emulate thiers because it is for show only

    I do not assert any superiority over it, I state it is fundamentally different, becuase of the end product focus. Unless of course we are talking about what is the end product, fighting skill. Then I do say that if the old traditional chinese fighting arts are practisecd correctly then they are superior at what the do, because the focus is on applicable combat usage of the skills therein contained within the system or style being practiced

    Wu shu is an outside body art, it would be like saying your Yi Chuan has no internal component and did not work to develop knock out destructive power in any of it's strikes. Wu shu simply does not train to develop that at a competition level. Competition wu shu is a highly developed performance art, that is meausred on a point marking system. Traditional martial arts are not measured on a point marking system, they are measured on thier ability to deliver devastating impact in the application or use of thier skills.

    A wu shu player could emulate your Yi Chuan but they could in no way be able to demonstrate use of fa li or fa jing in their emulation of your Yi Chuan

    IN the effort of deabte and not bait, I have written as much of this to be engaging in reasonable discussion based on fact and point. There is some common ground between us FQ, my only major dissagreement with you is that you say modern wushu and traditional CMA are the same thing. I recognise Wu shu for being a highly specialised and asthetically feat of perfromance, but I will never agree that it has the same ability or level of specialised level of combat skill that is found in traditional CMA. It would be like me saying Yi Chuan is a performance wu shu style. When clearly it is not never has been and never will be
     
  14. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    I'm glad that you are glad.

    Well now, just by the by, I happen to know a thing or two about ideological abuse of linguisitc definitions to smuggle false conclusions in to people's awareness. I have never said that they are the same thing. What I say is that they are part of the same thing - quanshu concepts.

    They are part of the same river - not the same thing, andy more than Yiquan and eagle claw are the same thing. And yet,t hey are connected and can inform and learn from one another because of that connection.

    Well neither do I - and nor is that what I said you do. What you do is compare your level to theirs - and that's not the same thing either.

    You should also consider that if you hadn't criticised wushu in the way that you did, then you wouldn't be open to being criticised in return. I didn't come on to you and say that your stuff is fake. Personally, I take issue with the idea that "traditional" is the real fight effective kung fu - not because I want to promote contemporary wushu, but because I love Quan.

    People are free, of course, to do useless forms and useless applications; but as long as you create an artificial perception between "useless" wushu and "super combat effective" traditional, then seekers of real information are duped.

    My standpoint is that most traditional is useless as well, and that you never prove any actual ability, but never the less seek and claim public kudos for success and abilities which you have never demonstrated. How accurate is that?

    Well, can you generate destructive impact power? Is that what you're telling me?

    One of the real annoying things about trad is this "implication" strategy, where you're careful to only imply. Just say it out loud - are you telling me that you have powerful, destructive impact ability?

    And also, compared to, and comparable to what? Wushu? Or boxers?

    Well, you mean of course my saying that a wushu expert would do your form better than you?

    Well let's examine what you're implying. You're saying that you have some kind of special body mechanics that comes from your traditional kung fu, right?

    I don't believe you. I certainly don't believe that there's anything about your body mechanics that any wushu expert couldn't duplicate.

    But, as you have made the claim, I challenge you to put up a video demonstrationg the proof of the claim that you have publicly made - unless you expect public kudos from private proof??

    I'm not saying you haven't, mind you - I'm just saying I choose not to believe your claim, and I choose to believe that you can't prove it.

    And I also choose to believe that the different body mechanics are no big deal. And I also think - not in your case of course - that for some people, they say "different body mechanics" as a means of explaining awaytheir poor level.

    So, you think a wushu guy can't hold his hand in the way you do? I bet they can, lol, only, I bet you couldn't do anything much that they could do, other than a hand shape. I don't mean to be cruel - you opened this pandora's box by criticising other people's level. I'd just like to know your justification.

    You know, it's just like the Wing Chun arguments - what is the justification behind these claims?

    Well obviously - but that's old traditional fighting arts trained full time by old traditional fighters. Are you saying that you have that kind of level?


    Well, for one, I don't do Yiquan, I'm just highly influenced by it. I don't specifically do any style except quan, and I inform my art from all aspects of quan.

    For two, "internal" has no meaning in Yiquan in that sense of internal arts - according to Wang Xiang Zhai. So no, yiquan has no internal components at all, unless you mean feelings inside the body. I know, I know - people assert it as an internal art, for the sake of public face - but no one can contradict Wang, obviously.

    I know. You're not listening to me.

    Well, they used to be, that's true. Are you telling me that you're tested in the application of your skills? Or, do you have any footage of traditional kung fu being genuinely tested like that?

    I mean, I know the old school guys did - but, you can't live off their reputations, can you?

    Well, you're just telling a complex lie there, in my view. See, you assert that your forms have combat practicality - a kind of unproven, unseeable quality to your forms - let's call it "Quality X". You never prove it, you never show it, but you publicly claim it is there.

    So then you say, wushu doesn't have Quality X.

    And then you say, a wushu player might emulate my form, but he won't have Quality X.

    Well, I don't believe you have quality X, Julian. And you know what else - if you say "come down and find out" then I'll know you don't - because public kudos from private proof is a con. Public claims require public proof.

    Well, we should probalby have all this moved to the applications thread.

    As for facts - you mean like Quality X? That's not a fact, it's a made up quality that you factor in to your equations to make the outcome favourable to pre-supposed beliefs.

    Well I don't say that - I say they are part of the same thing.

    Well you see that's a point sommersault - but untwisting it, the real point is that neither, really, are able to demonstrate Quality X at the moment.

    Well, again, that comes from a complex lie - performance is part of CMA - but there can be many aspects to the whole field of CMA. Seems to me that Quality X might pop in any surprising place.... it might be in a wushu guy, and not in a Yiquan guy...
     
  15. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Is this the kind of high level fight application skill you're talking about:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m79TDh9O_90&feature=related"]EAGLE CLAW PART 1 - YouTube[/ame]



    ?
     
  16. steel fingers

    steel fingers Valued Member

    It would be impolite for me to make a comment on that eagle claw video as it is through my SiGungs students student. So politically I can make no comment

    Thats ok FQ you can call me a liar, and what ever else you like. You can hide behind your profile as well. BUt I have made an offer for freindly (freindly) no malice at all, all issues aside, to meet with you face to face and touch hands discuss etc.

    Snip
    Well now, just by the by, I happen to know a thing or two about ideological abuse of linguisitc definitions to smuggle false conclusions in to people's awareness. I have never said that they are the same thing. What I say is that they are part of the same thing - quanshu concepts.

    OK

    They are part of the same river - not the same thing, andy more than Yiquan and eagle claw are the same thing. And yet,t hey are connected and can inform and learn from one another because of that connection.

    OK

    You should also consider that if you hadn't criticised wushu in the way that you did, then you wouldn't be open to being criticised in return. I didn't come on to you and say that your stuff is fake.

    Er yes you do

    Personally, I take issue with the idea that "traditional" is the real fight effective kung fu - not because I want to promote contemporary wushu, but because I love Quan.

    That is clearer

    People are free, of course, to do useless forms and useless applications; but as long as you create an artificial perception between "useless" wushu and "super combat effective" traditional, then seekers of real information are duped.

    No they are not, one is for those that want sport and enjoy performance, the other is for those who want to practice or at least fighting skills in a what should be a more realistic manner

    My standpoint is that most traditional is useless as well,

    I actually agree with you here, not most but a lot of so called traditional schools miss the point, but a lot of thers do get it right

    and that you never prove any actual ability, but never the less seek and claim public kudos for success and abilities which you have never demonstrated. How accurate is that?

    Refer to my invite

    Well, can you generate destructive impact power? Is that what you're telling me?

    One of the real annoying things about trad is this "implication" strategy, where you're careful to only imply. Just say it out loud - are you telling me that you have powerful, destructive impact ability?

    Well all the conditiong training etc must be for nothing then, seems I have been wasting my time

    And also, compared to, and comparable to what? Wushu? Or boxers?

    Does a boxer not train his hit to have knockout power? Is that not a core method of his training, and fighting system trains those attributes. Is that not or should be a core attribute in TCMA

    Well, you mean of course my saying that a wushu expert would do your form better than you?

    Form is form, if you play it on an outside level

    Well let's examine what you're implying. You're saying that you have some kind of special body mechanics that comes from your traditional kung fu, right?

    Yes your right, wushu over extends in all areas, this is does not generate whole body body, neither does is teach to use intenal compresion expansion, rib or spine power

    I don't believe you. I certainly don't believe that there's anything about your body mechanics that any wushu expert couldn't duplicate.

    I agree, with training anyone can - DUH !

    But, as you have made the claim, I challenge you to put up a video demonstrationg the proof of the claim that you have publicly made - unless you expect public kudos from private proof??

    I'm not saying you haven't, mind you - I'm just saying I choose not to believe your claim, and I choose to believe that you can't prove it.

    That is just a get out clause for you not to visit :D

    And I also choose to believe that the different body mechanics are no big deal. And I also think - not in your case of course - that for some people, they say "different body mechanics" as a means of explaining awaytheir poor level.

    Ok well I guess we have to disagree then, maybe we just learned different things

    So, you think a wushu guy can't hold his hand in the way you do? I bet they can, lol, only, I bet you couldn't do anything much that they could do, other than a hand shape. I don't mean to be cruel - you opened this pandora's box by criticising other people's level. I'd just like to know your justification.

    No the wu shu can hold his hand in the same shape *SHAPE* but not have all the other attributes that go with traditional shen fa, without extensive training. Of course as per earlier point with training, anyone can, that goes for if god forbid I ever wanted to learn wu shu - Of course i can it is only learning

    You know, it's just like the Wing Chun arguments - what is the justification behind these claims?

    Dont know what all the wing chun arguements are, so cant comment


    Well obviously -

    but that's old traditional fighting arts trained full time by old traditional fighters. Are you saying that you have that kind of level?

    I train 6 hours a day 5 days a week, plus teach classes, guess that is pretty full time, achieved level....no idea I just keep plugging away

    Well, for one, I don't do Yiquan, I'm just highly influenced by it. I don't specifically do any style except quan, and I inform my art from all aspects of quan.

    Fair enough, but I am sure I read on another thread you did Yi Chuan,


    For two, "internal" has no meaning in Yiquan in that sense of internal arts - according to Wang Xiang Zhai. So no, yiquan has no internal components at all, unless you mean feelings inside the body. I know, I know - people assert it as an internal art, for the sake of public face - but no one can contradict Wang, obviously.

    And we all know the internal external arguements is a load of old BS anyway, but wangs foundation skills were from, Hsing Yi, Bagua etc, so that is probable were it all stemmed

    Wu shu simply does not train to develop that at a competition level. Competition wu shu is a highly developed performance art, that is meausred on a point marking system.


    I know. You're not listening to me.

    Maybe your point was not clear or your not lisetening to me

    Well, they used to be, that's true. Are you telling me that you're tested in the application of your skills? Or, do you have any footage of traditional kung fu being genuinely tested like that?

    They never had cameras when I worked on the doors for 3 years

    I mean, I know the old school guys did - but, you can't live off their reputations, can you?

    I dont try to - What gives you that idea

    Well, you're just telling a complex lie there, in my view. See, you assert that your forms have combat practicality - a kind of unproven, unseeable quality to your forms - let's call it "Quality X". You never prove it, you never show it, but you publicly claim it is there.

    NO I say that the forms within my system are a training component of the methodolgy behind developing fighting skills within my style, and should reflect what is being trained at a fundamental body method level

    So then you say, wushu doesn't have Quality X.

    And then you say, a wushu player might emulate my form, but he won't have Quality X.

    Yes correct - because it is being emultaed on the outside level - sure if they trained in your form and learned all that was inside it etc then they could do it

    Well, I don't believe you have quality X, Julian. And you know what else - if you say "come down and find out" then I'll know you don't - because public kudos from private proof is a con. Public claims require public proof.

    But that is just your way of not comming out in public yourself FQ, it allows you to hide behind your computer. I have never looked for any public kudos, I am just disucssing it with you. I am more than happy to take it to PM and continue there, hey come on down bring some freinds we'll all have some tea and exchange nice and freindly.

    Well I don't say that - I say they are part of the same thing.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by steel fingers
    I recognise Wu shu for being a highly specialised and asthetically feat of perfromance, but I will never agree that it has the same ability or level of specialised level of combat skill that is found in traditional CMA.

    Well you see that's a point sommersault - but untwisting it, the real point is that neither, really, are able to demonstrate Quality X at the moment.

    It is not a point somersault at all, I thin I have fairly consistently said that


    Originally Posted by steel fingers
    It would be like me saying Yi Chuan is a performance wu shu style. When clearly it is not never has been and never will be

    Well, again, that comes from a complex lie - performance is part of CMA - but there can be many aspects to the whole field of CMA. Seems to me that Quality X might pop in any surprising place.... it might be in a wushu guy, and not in a Yiquan guy...

    Who's lie ?

    Oh go on surprise me

    Have a nice weekend, :D
     
  17. Su lin

    Su lin Gone away

    Discussion of videos guys, or else everything gets snipped.
     
  18. Tim T

    Tim T Iam Jacks Smirkng Revenge

    the chinna stuff at the end was cool. Steel fingers cant you come to the uk kungfu meet up and teach some of that! ;)
     
  19. yeeu kui

    yeeu kui Valued Member

    Can't say "Shaolin" impresses me to be honest. Too much jumping about.
    Very fit acrobats though!

    here's some traditional kung fu :

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pXm0060RKc"]YouTube[/ame]
     
  20. steel fingers

    steel fingers Valued Member

    Tim,

    I can't too busy with chinese new year loin dancing etc. Bad time of year for me to do anything except Lion dance etc.
     

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