Kung fu + Ground Fighting arts, how have you done it?

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by SifuJason, Aug 8, 2007.

  1. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    As per the title, let's discuss. Wun Hop Kuen Do has a good amount of ground fighting in it, and myself and others are adding more BJJ into the formal curriculum as we pick it, work it, and experiment with the integration. I'll include what I have done later.
     
  2. SteelyPhil

    SteelyPhil Messiah of Lovelamb

    I haven't yet, but I hope to take up Judo next year at Uni. My WC instructor is big on cross training and already throws lil peices of other arts in the ground/clinch game when you get to Intermediat level.
     
  3. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Have a small bit of time, so I'll start with what Kajukenbo (and thus WHKD) has done in prior to about 2000.

    Wun Hop Kuen Do is essentially a mixed style, rooted in kung fu, but that has large escrima, judo and jujitsu components (as well as a strong kenpo root). So, in our art, we have a lot of judo throws and jujitsu locks, in addition to our chin na techniques. We work the "judo clinch" a bit, and typically we fight in a manner to take our opponent to the ground while we remain standing, using sweeps, throws, etc, and then we follow up with strikes or a lock. We have always worked basic submissions like guillotines, sleepers, and arm-bars. Watching the art, it looks and flows like kung fu, but has some "atypical techniques" that are more prevalent in these other arts.

    Currently (post 2000 mostly, although some of us started before that) we are incorporating BJJ into the art, and are in the process of formalizing some new curriculum to disseminate to all of our schools as the instructors learn and experiment with BJJ.
     
  4. beknar

    beknar Valued Member

    I was in the submission grappling pilot program at my old school. The guy who developed it and taught us is a guy with a Judo background who knew the ne-waza game pretty well. He stressed positional dominance over everything else. We did a lot of drilling, limited rolling for training a specific skill/concept, and full on rolling to apply everything. A bunch of guys in the class were from JJJ and greco-roman wrestling backgrounds and they all seemed to be of the opinion, that while very basic, the program covered well, the basics.

    From the videos I've seen, it looks like they're using San Shou and pankration as rulesets to compete in and to apply their standup and grappling. However, because we learned it from a guy with a Judo perspective, I am probably missing key BJJ concepts, moves and strategies. In discussions with BJJ guys, I often get lost in some of their terminology. I had to stop doing it to get a handle on my standup game, but once I do that, I can start getting into it again.
     
  5. Cathain

    Cathain Lily Lau Gar

    Well as it stands there is a black sash who is primarily training in BJJ at the moment (not sure what belt he holds in it) and he sometimes appears at the Kwoon and rolls with anyone who wants to do. Everyone who wants to is free to do so instead of their Kung fu syllabus work. I've rolled with them a couple of times. It's great stuff and totally different from what I'm learning in Lau Gar (incl. the little chin na I was taught as part of my knife defense material).

    There is also a class that runs in the same building with us.
    I know they do Judo but they also do a "grappling class" (which is probably BJJ I suspect). I fancy trying it out at some point.
    Unfortunately, the building we practise in is being sold and we are now looking for a new place to call home. So everything is up in the air at the moment. One of the possible venues has MMA and Judo, so even though it's further for me to travel, it might open up more groudwork opportunities for me in the long run.
     
  6. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    I did some BJJ and other MMA at a local school, but decided to drop it and focus on Kung Fu. Honestly, I have a low level BJJ game in my bag, but would only use it if I got taken down. I doubt I would try to take someone down and use it, as my Kung Fu is much stronger than my ground skills. It's not a skill I cultivate anymore.
     
  7. Banditshaw

    Banditshaw El Bandido

    I used to wrestle when I was in HS. But I wasn't on the wrestling team, my buddies were, and I used to play around a little :) . Plus some other guys I know do Judo so they showed me some stuff(sorry don't know the terminologies). I showed them some Kung Fu and we get to use what works.
    I know a boatload of BJJ guys from the various Clubs I've worked at and they are all super cool dudes who show me stuff from time to time.
    Now at the moment I feel as if I'm scratching the surface in my Gung Fu so I won't be diving into a pure groundfighting art as of yet, but I am open in the future. Presently I am open to touch hands and learn from others in the groundfighting arts. As well as exchanging info with other stylists.
     
  8. jmd161

    jmd161 Hak Fu Mun

    Of course you know to the hard core grapplers, once you've added anything other than kung fu to supplement your training, you're now a MMA stylist and no longer considered kung fu?

    I myself like catch wrestling, but it's a lot harder to find than BJJ or Sambo. Catch wrestling is a monster with all the submissions of BJJ, but with a few more of it's own, and is not limited to the ground like BJJ. After catch I like Sambo a lot.

    What I really like is working against BJJ'ers and other grapplers with my chosen art, and gaining as much experience as I can in practical application of them. This gives you a much more deeper understanding of the techniques and more experience in applying them from different angles and ranges.


    jeff:)
     
  9. Banditshaw

    Banditshaw El Bandido



    I agree. This is by far the most fun if not eye opening method of pressure testing your chosen art.
     
  10. hanakuso

    hanakuso Banned Banned

    Been wrestling since I was 7. After college I thought I'd head over to China and see what's up over there. That was in the early/mid 90s. Studied kungfu and taichiquan for a few years (and still wrestling). After that, headed over to Japan and did much the same with some JMAs (and still wrestling). Back home I've kept on wrestling and had the chance to try a little of this and that and train with a variety of folks from a variety of styles. And on it goes...
     
  11. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    I currently do judo and have done some BJJ and MMA classes in the past. Would love to do BJJ again but current lack of funds/location mean that I'll have to put it off for awhile.

    Personally I think everyone (regardless of martial art) should know enough groundwork to at least survive on the ground. I thimk BJJ or judo goes well with pretty much any other martial art. I found all the touch contact work I had done in the kung fu meant I picked certain things up quite quickly in the grappling, still got a long long way to go on my takedowns and throws though lol
     
  12. GoktimusPrime

    GoktimusPrime New Member

    Hi there. I'm a Mantis fighter, so we're a style that does both striking and grappling. ;)

    And yes, we do ground work. About a year ago I was training with some BJJ guys and they were surprised to see how comfortable I was starting off in a submission hold and how I would counter-grapple to get out of them. We played this game where my opponent would put me in a full BJJ body lock and we had to counter-grapple to get out of it. The trick was that we weren't allowed to do any striking, so effectively I was disallowed from using half of my Kung Fu. In spite of this, in each instance, I managed to escape from the hold - although I was quickly put back into a hold, but I would always manage to escape or nearly escape. I think I would've had better luck if I were actually allowed to hit my opponent, but oh well. :p

    Btw, I'm a big toy-collecting nerd so I tend to illustrate a lot of my points with photos of toys. :p

    Some people use a breakfall technique called the Ukemi (受身). IMHO the weakness of the Ukemi technique is that it leaves you opened and exposed when you're on the ground to follow up moves, like say, being kicked teeth, groin or stomped on the head multiple times, as you can see here:
    [​IMG]

    In Kung Fu, we curl ourselves into a protective "cage" which not only shields us from kicks but also allows us to counter - in this case, using a leg to thwart an incoming kick in mid-flight before it can be completed.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2007
  13. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Just to clarify, by a BJJ body lock, are you referring to a guard?
     
  14. beknar

    beknar Valued Member

    Or maybe a cross-body armlock, ie an armbar?
     
  15. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member


    As I mentioned on the other post, it is pretty much impossible to get out of an armbar once it's pre-locked, assuming both people are on their back, so I was excluding that one. With the arm-barred person standing, that is escapable, so that could be a possibility.
     
  16. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    He's probably referring to a figure four from the back (am I saying that right?). Where you take the back, tuck one ankle into the back of your knee and squeeze the body.
     
  17. money

    money New Member

    I usually call that a body triangle.
     
  18. GoktimusPrime

    GoktimusPrime New Member

    It's that lock where the person is completely on top of you and they're kinda "hugging" you like a koala. It's not a very accurate description - sorry, I'm not a BJJ practitioner. The lock wasn't completed to the point where you had to tap out - because I agree that once the lock gets past that critical point, it's nigh impossible to counter, but just one notch before that critical point where it's still possible to counter-grapple. We would start with the senior student holding us in that position, literally a fraction of a second away from finishing his lock, and then "start." The point of the game was for the defender to begin counter grappling before the attacker could finish his lock.

    All grapples and locks can be countered so long as you do it before that critical final stage, the final stage being where you feel the urge to tap out. Before the tap out, you can still escape.
     
  19. beknar

    beknar Valued Member

    Facing you? On your back? And if facing you, are his hips above or below yours?
     
  20. GoktimusPrime

    GoktimusPrime New Member

    Facing me with hips above mine.
     

Share This Page