Oh Come on Guys! This thread was running O.K. and the bickering had begun to be abated prior to the site going down, and we lost all the posts since about December 29th or so. Please stop blazing away at eachother. There is so much of interest that is being lost or forgotten and not answered because more time is being spent trading cyber blows. C'mon and pick it up a wee bit gentlemen, please. It would be really good to try and understand the differences and similarities between KS and HWD, and see what is common and why, and what is different and why. Please gentlmen?
I know what you are saying is true, Q, and its not that I disagree with your sentiments. The point I am striving to make is that there are particular themes which never get their 'due" in these discussions even as the impact of their existence is being demonstrated. Here are some examples of what I am referring to. a.) There is the matter of Racism. Most of us know it less by what "H" and I are discussing and more by the reality of non-Koreans not advancing as far or as high as Korean practitioners. The more intellectual part gets tossed to one side, I think, because we are not all-together as intellectual in our pursuits. b.) Another theme is the matter of self-service and immaturity regarding the motives of the "founding fathers". Most people would like to see pictures of their favorite GM with a halo about his head. or walking on water---or both. Few people like to think of the household names of today as fabricating material with an eye towards their own self-aggrandizement or commercial success. c.) Yet another theme noone like to discuss is the matter of politics---in the sense of one guy bumping another into the gutter and wanting the spot-light to himself. d.) Finally, there is the matter of revisionism where people of questionable history are re-written to be transcendent figures, or the sole voice of reason in an otherwise chaotic world. From where I sit, a lot of comparitive threads such as this one tend to take the safe "cosmetic" approach. That is, people sit and consider what are the differences and similarities on the single most superficial level. Deep thinkers need not apply. For my part I would like some of these folks to come out from behind their belief systems and start speaking in terms of facts and figures. But thats just me. As always, YMMV. Best Wishes, Bruce
Cheers Bruce, I see where you are coming from, and I understand what you are looking to draw out. I also undertand both your and H's frustrations. I think that the areas you have mentioned would be areas of interest and positive discussion, and would to a greater or lesser degree feed into the wider question of comparison between HWD and KS, and for that matter other KMA. (Even if the differences are because one "Master" hates another "Master" for beeatch slapping him or whatever :evil However, all I ask is that we all keep it a bit more civilised and try and answer eachother's points. When tempers flare, the purpose and the point of the discussions gets lost and the information and knowledge that can be brought out with it, is all I am saying. I do appreciate that tempers have been raised, and I am not picking on anyone here, so please I hope to cause no offense to anyone. All the very best gentlemen. :hat: Quozl
thank you qouzl. well noted. bruce, that was a brilliantly worded post and it made alot of sense. over the past couple of days i've realized that alot of the korean masters treat us "outsiders" just like that: OUTSIDERS. they seem to not want to teach us all the real stuff. it makes me wonder. one quick note: the kuk sool form "Jung Geup Hyung" and the Hwa Rang Do form "Hwarang Sun Hyung" almost look identical except for the fact that Jung Geup is more linear while Sun Hyung is more flowing and incorporates the Um Yang principle. why is that? can anyone shed light on this? why the different versions of the SAME form??
I am not sure that identical is the correct word to describe the two forms but there are some similarities between the forms. They can also be seen in Hwarang Yeh and Hwarang Choong hyung and the other intermediate Kuk Sool forms. It comes from when Grandmasters JBL and IHS worked together in the Han Guk Mu Sool Hwe (sp?). Who ran the organization has been debated, depending on which party you talk with. But I don't think anyone has disputed its existance. There are also a variety of technique sets which are similar in the two systems.
Thanks for that. I suppose we could just go to the han geul - 한국무술협회 - which would make it hanguk musul hyeophoe, if using the new romanization scheme (I added hyeop since that's the full wording, IIRC the shortcut version was just guk sul hoe). FWIW, if you omit hyeop (협) then the translation is "korean MA meeting" instead of "korean MA association." I also believe it was a co-leadership. Since one was located in Seoul and the other in Busan, there wasn't an immediate struggle for power (that came later, along with the ultimate split). IHS must've had the upper hand in those dealings since he walked away with relatively the same name as the original organization, and JBL had to come up with HRD as the moniker for his group. Long ago, the story told amongst kuk-soolers was that JBL had once been a part of KSW, and split away to form his own group (this was when Michael Echanis was a big name in not only MA magazines but had a crossover following in others like SOF - Soldier of Fortune). In actuality, JBL wasn't a member of KSW but of KSH, but such nuance was obviously lost in translation (both names translate the same, BTW). Not that hyung & soo in KSW haven't been changed over the years, but perhaps the fact that JBL was forced to make the first concession WRT changing the name of his MA organization, I think he was the first to make subtle changes to the once shared curriculum and this helped to fuel the assumption made by folks in KSW that he was subordinate to IHS. Actually, I believe JBL is older than IHS and therefore co-leadership is the only thing that makes any sense. Of course we mustn't forget about other players in that early founding organization, such as Woo Tak Kim, who if not mistaken was the founder of KSK and based in Gyeongju. Although not completely positive about all of this, I believe he may have been another co-leader of the group, with the distances between them being the ally which initially prevented them from all the bickering that eventually tore them apart.
Thanks, Sorry I did forget the "hyup". If I remember correctly five or six involved, JBL and his brother, IHS, Woo Tak Kim and two others (another in Pusan and one in Seoul). I am not remembering names off the top of my head. Co-leadership is probably the best name for what it was. Especially given the age differences and strong personalities of the group.
Kuk Sool forms HAVE changed since I first became involved. If you look at the way the Venezuelan team performed them, THAT version is closer to what I was taught in the early days. Mind you... I was taught the early version by my Instructor GM Pak, and HISA version was very close to what the Venezuelans do. Interesting fact is that the Dan Mu Do people in Canada (formerly Kuk Sool in Canada) also do it the "other way". This leads me to believe that this group originally learned the forms as I learned them, and they were not even remotely associated with GM Pak (unless they had contact before moving to Canada). Rudy
