KSW: Technique performance

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by justinksw, May 26, 2005.

  1. justinksw

    justinksw Valued Member

    In our dojang we tend to have some small classes sometimes and this allows us to look at our techniques a little closer and really focus on the best way to perform them. Basically I realized how wrong I have been doing some techniques up to this point. I mean I am doing the correct movements and everything but in class I found that we don't necessarily push the technique anywhere near the extent we should.

    In particular I will take Ki Bohn Soo #1:

    (for all non-KSW folks, this is a throw where you start by facing your opponent in a left (or right) foot forward stance, and then step forward, grabbing your opponent's lead hand with your right (or left) hand, then grab with the other hand, stepping outside them in the direction of the hand grabbed, and bringing the arm up and over executing a throw) - I hope this describes it well enough :)

    I used to get this technique no problem, and my opponent always knew the throw was coming, so they tend to lead it a bit and it loses its effectiveness. My instructor walked me through the technique the other night, focusing more on each and every move of the technique as its being performed. Basically the opponent should be in agony by the time you get their hand up to the 12 o'clock position, before you have turned to execute the throw. This could possibly be a devastating move that would do serious injury if done 'in real life'.

    Now when I was taught this move, I was told the 'proper' way to perform it, but I have practiced it with a willing opponent so many times that I have lost the original intent of it.

    Basically I am saying that I feel I/we need to practice these much more and with a less cooperative opponent to get the most out of the move. I also have found that I need to really study the book and work with a partner to really 'get' the techniques the way they are meant to be done.

    Anyone else run into this? This is why they say 'perfect practice makes perfect'.

    Have a great day! :D
     
  2. TXKukSoolBB

    TXKukSoolBB Valued Member

    It is really funny that you posted this topic today. In the DBN class that I taught last night, we spent one full hour just going over and practicing Ki Bohn Soo with fall and finishes. Many of the students were just as surprised as I was with some of the little mistakes that were being made.

    You are correct about the amount of practice that needs to be done with the foundational sets. I feel that if your foundational techniques are not solid, it not only shows up on that particular technique...but in you advanced techniques as well. I'm pretty sure anyone out there who has ever graded a stripe/belt exam would agree.

    BTW...I even had a student point out a mistake I made while demonstrating one technique. When we say "We Need More Practice", it means everyone.
     
  3. baubin2

    baubin2 New Member

    Some of my favorite practices are the ones where you go over a set of techniques really slowly, while paying great attention to detail and with your partner consciously resisting you the entire time. Since I've been home on break, I've gone over Sohn Mok Soo and Ki Bohn Soo this way with a friend in informal practices, and it has really helped us refine our techniques. Reminds you of stuff you tend to neglect in normal practices, because your partner isn't really making you work very hard, and teaches you a few tips/tricks that you wouldn't otherwise pick up because you don't really try to be creative in a normal class.
     
  4. jv2080

    jv2080 New Member

    I"m going through this right now. Realizing how much I don't know.
     
  5. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    I always try to use techniques in grappling, and sometimes do a "Randori" type excercize with Ricree, where we try to use certain techniques on eachother, full resistance, each trying to get the other one down. I'm pleased to say I've actually gotten Ahn Sohn Muhk Soo #5 to work that way, which in my mind is a fairly difficult takedown. Ki Bohn Soo #1, however, I've never done in grappling, and I don't think I could ever get it work in a real situation.

    Which techniques from the sets have you pulled off successfully in grappling? Here's a list of what I've gotten:

    Ki Bohn Soo 5, 9, 14, almost 3
    Eui Bohk Soo 8, 9, almost 5
    Ahn Sohn Maek Soo 5, 6
    Joon Geup Sohn Maek Soo 2
    Ahp Eui Bohk Soo 2, almost 5

    12 out of 117 (or 12 out of 65, not counting Joon Muhk Maga and Maek Chigi/Chagi)- less than 20%

    I would love to try some of this against Judo guys, because with them not knowing the techniques, I see a lot of opportunities to use them. And since I'm a beginner in Judo, I'm not allowed to use chokes or joint locks in Randori (which I found out the hard way). It's so annoying having yellow belts turn their backs to you on the ground, or sticking their arms up in your face while lying on their backs, and knowing you could end the match in a second, but not technically being able to do anything about it *sigh* enough ranting, though.
     
  6. JSun

    JSun Valued Member

    I think most of the people in my classes tend to rush through the previously learned techniques in anticipation of learning a new one. I've noticed that most of the people I partner up with are quick to say the technique feels effective when I know for a fact I haven't executed it to the point that it becomes the slightest bit uncomfortable. When the KSN at our dojang demonstrates techniques, he makes it a point to apply enough pressure to cause a slight amount of pain. That tells me the technique has been properly applied. When I'm practicing Eui Bok Soo #4, the lock doesn't seem to solidify until I'm half way into the kneeling position. Most of my partners won't even let me get that far into the technique. I am stoked, though, that we begin tournament training this month because we are going to complete techniques with falls and finishes. I really wished we trained this way year round.
     
  7. justinksw

    justinksw Valued Member

    Eui Bok Soo #4 is one of my favorite techniques. As soon as you trap the hand and apply the pressure, they should feel it a bit, but when you start to lean on it, they should definitely be tapping.

    We make an effort to make sure our partner taps out of each technique before we move on so we know it was done correctly. Unfortunately, some people need to be reminded what the tapping means - PAIN. They usually get reminded when the roles are reversed though.. :)
     
  8. CraigKSW

    CraigKSW New Member

    i've been real lucky with my training buds in that we all push each other. Can't stand it when people tap out for no reason - they just hold you back!!! we usually keep applying pressure a bit longer after the tap just to make sure - lol

    You need to trap the hand really tight but not the wrist - cos if you do then you'll end up supporting the wrist. I had trouble when first learning this technique but now as Justin says as soon as you trap the hand it should hurt. Just experiment with the angle at which you twist your body!
     
  9. JSun

    JSun Valued Member

    Thanks for the advice. When I try to get a heads up on my future techniques by referencing the textbook, I sometimes have a hard time determining where Kuk Sa Nim is placing his hands. I understand that we have instructors to iron out details, but I tend to get a bit ahead of myself. So the actual wrist lock on Eui Bok Soo #4 should set when I step in with the right foot. Is the trap more effective when I grab the shoulder of my dobak with the thumb as I cross grab my oppenents hands as well?
     
  10. baubin2

    baubin2 New Member

    Yeah, I hate the partners who tap really early, or who wimp out on the techniques. There was this one girl in my white belt class who wouldn't even do the takedowns on Ki Bohn Soo 10 and 11, apparently it made her too nervous to take me down through my head. And then it'd affect the way I trained with others because I would train with her for a bit, get used to holding back, switch to a better partner, but still hold back out of habit. Grrr... hate the people too wimpy to practice properly.

    On the other hand, once it hurts, there's no shame in tapping out. don't want to accidentally break someone's wrist :)
     
  11. CraigKSW

    CraigKSW New Member

    yup! get as much clothing as possible but I actually grab my dobok with my fingers (i think....its hard describing a technique without doing it)! :confused: the thing with Eui bok soo is that they;re clothing techniques so make sure you get your partners wrist trapped in your clothing! Works so much better! :)
     
  12. TXKukSoolBB

    TXKukSoolBB Valued Member

    That is exactly right. You use your dobok to increase the effectiveness...it becomes a weapon of sorts!
     
  13. justinksw

    justinksw Valued Member

    watch out for those armed skateboarders with all their loose clothes!! :eek:
     
  14. JSun

    JSun Valued Member

    Speaking of techniques, I paid for a private today and we we're finishing out my set up eui bok soo. KSN Nance was demonstrating EBS #12. Man, when he put the pressure on the Yuhl-Guyhl point @ the wrist...pow! I've read about accupressure, but this is the first art that has actually demonstrated it for me. My entire arm went numb. I've been trying to find it myself with very little success since. So much to learn, so much to learn. I love the fact that this art delves into such detail. I understand that just being a beginner the techniques are the foundation for further refinement. That is what I think attracts me to this art more than any other I've encountered. I'm anxious to move on to the Maek chi ki and Maek cha ki sets. His demonstration today has absolutely peaked my interest :)
     
  15. TXKukSoolBB

    TXKukSoolBB Valued Member

    It is a very good techique to learn that particular pressure point. Knowing how to "light up" that pressure point will help you later in other sets that you will learn. You will like Maek cha/chi ki. Make sure that your training partner tells you when you "hit the spots"...otherwise you will not learn it's effectiveness. Also one of the best ways to learn pressure points...is to FEEL them yourselves via your instructor. As with EBS #12, there are two ways of aggrevating that point. One hurts and the other will make you want to jump out of your dobok as your arm catches fire. The difference is between the "rotation grind" and the "sawing motion." Obviously stick to the way that you were taught, I just wanted you to know there were two versions. Keep training hard!

    By the way...KSN Nance is an outstanding instuctor!
     
  16. TXKukSoolBB

    TXKukSoolBB Valued Member

    I know that it can be frustrating baubin2...but remember that if they are doing there best...that is all you can ask. I can tell you that as an instructor, every student has a different level of tolerance. The good thing about training with multiple partners (even those who don't fall or fall well) is that you learn control. When students go through the blackbelt testing cycle in Houston, they will face a different parner each time. One may be the next tournament grand champion and the next time your partner with a 50 year old female who does Kuk Sool just for healthy exercise.
    Tapping out...is not shameful but smart. As I tell my students, you cannot train in effective wrist lock techniques with a cast on. Plus, going to the point of tapping out helps to build up stability in the joint itself. With that said...try to find a partner that you can really "crank" the techniques with safely and let the fun begin!
     
  17. CraigKSW

    CraigKSW New Member

    totally agree - just read over my earlier post and it sounds as though I don't like peopel to tap out!

    It's when people tap out and you know there is no lock there. i know there're people in my class that just tap for the sake of it because it has become habbit. But everyone does have their limits and that should def be respected!
     
  18. ember

    ember Valued Member

    We don't do takedowns on any regular basis until the brown belt level. In the beginning and intermediate classes we may practice one or two techniques with takedowns, usually on an assistant or instructor (brown or black belt). When we do, they're usually Ki Bohn Soo 1, 2, or Sohn Mok Soo 2.

    Ki Bohn Soo 10 and 11 are techniques that IMO warrant that extra care -- break a partner's neck and we'll run out of partners real fast. I do them very slowly and carefully.

    The other thing to remember is that different people have different sensitivities and tolerances. I've had people tell me that they hardly feel it with a few pressure points, and I've had partners who were really sensitive at one or two.

    I've also had (and been) partners with injuries that warrant some extra caution, and could cause an early tapout.

     
  19. JSun

    JSun Valued Member

    I've got a newbie question for you. We haven't gone over the finishing takedown on Sohn Mohk Soo #2. After my partner's hand and wrist is countergrabbed, and turned clockwise, what's next? I know there's a forward step, but where's the takedown? I can feel my partner's tendons tightening on the lock, and most partners cave in at the abdomin when there hand is pushed, but I get lost after that. Any help would be appreciated.
     
  20. TXKukSoolBB

    TXKukSoolBB Valued Member


    As one of my instructors told me years ago..."If the technique is done right, the take down in natural." To answer your question...check with your instructor. Since you are just learning these techniques...it is best for your instructor to teach this so that he/she many observe you and make corrections. Otherwise you could cause an injury to your training partner.
     

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