KSW Roots

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by AirNick, Feb 3, 2006.

  1. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Historically, there is no relationship between karate and Kuksool.

    There is a relationship between KS and DRAJJ, but that's only one component of KS.
  2. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    I don't see why there wouldn't be a Shotokan Karate influence via TKD. Also, I seem to remember that karate influenced the striking Hapkido.
  3. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Proof, please.

    Proof, please.
  4. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    Proof that TKD influenced Kuk Sool? In Hyuk Suh himself admits to having studied it (and he said he studied karate, too at the last seminar I was at, even if it was only to say "I've studied karate. I've studied TKD. Kuk Sool is better."). As for why would I think TKD might have influenced kuk sool? Because they're both Korean and some of the striking looks (very) similar. Some of the stances in Kuk Sool are karate-esque. It just doesn't seem like much of a stretch that there's a TKD influence on Kuk Sool. And I'm not claiming that I factually know that to be true - it just doesn't seem unreasonable?

    Proof that I seem to remember that? Could you clarify your statement, or actually read mine before asking for proof? How much do you know about the history of Hapkido, anyway?
    Last edited: May 25, 2006
  5. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    Shotokan was Tang Soo Do not Tae Kwon Do, modern Tae Kwon Do is nothings like shotokan except that it kicks and punches, many of the kicks are more Tae Kyon anyway. TKD is not a representation of Shotokan, the Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, was the main one, and it to had alot of material from Moo Ye Dobo Tongji...
  6. Wolf

    Wolf Totalitarian Dictator

    Actually, Tae Kwon Do and shotokan are very, very similar. They have very similar forms, and striking is virtually identical (except for the high kicks).
  7. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    Dear Jo Kyo Nim Paul,
    I have studied TSD, TKD, and Shotokan, and the forms are not the same. They are in moo duk kwan and a few other kwans that were created in 1945 at the end of the japanese occupation, but Tae Keuk set is definatly not. It is hard to recognize mose of the forms, even though they claim similar titles above BB...
    best regards,
  8. Wolf

    Wolf Totalitarian Dictator

    I studied TKD as well (it's been so long that I forget which kwan), and have watched video of shotokan forms. Also, I train in the same room regularly with the WTF club here at the university. Their forms are (at least early level forms) are very much the same as I learned in the couple years I was in TKD. Another club here, Ogasawara-Ha Shorinji Ryu Karatedo, practices similar forms. Here's a video of this Japanese club doing what is almost identical to what I learned as the first form in TKD: http://www.uga.edu/karatedo/video/taikyoku.1.html. TKD is distinctly japanese in origin, and from what I've studied and seen of it, and what I've seen of shotokan the two are way too similar to not be related. However, I'm sure MadMonk will be on eventually. He and Thomas are our resident KMA experts and could probably answer this debate for us. If either of them tells me I'm wrong I'll accept it, but to this point my observation says otherwise.
  9. PopeCoyote

    PopeCoyote The words of the fool

    Actually, I studied Shotokan and Ember studied TKD before we found Kuk Sool. One of the biggest things I saw , though, was the different styles of each art. Yes, they both did kicks and punches and forms, but Shotokan focused very much on staying low to the ground, getting the power into your technique from the supporting leg, and TKD focused on up-in-the-air acrobatics. The other major difference I saw was with regard to board breaking. Ember's TKD school had her break boards with _every_ test ( I believe the first two were hammerfist and axe kick). My Shotokan school, on the other hand, tended to take the Bruce Lee tactic with it: WHY? "Boards...Don't hit back"
  10. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    Dear Jo Kyo Nim Paul,
    It would appear we have a bit of a friendly dispute here. You are correct TKD does have Japanese origins...that is correct, without a doubt. However modern TKD, and all TKD has really been distinctly korean interpretation. Pope Coyote is very much correct about the differences. Taikyoku is similar but not to Tae Keuk Il Jang. Look at the kukiwon website and look at the forms, then look at a shotokan person do the same forms, they are not the same. The stance training is different, the strikes are different, and the kicks are definatly different. The similarity that exists today is that the higher level forms share some of the same names, but the korean counterpart, and may follow a similar foot work pattern, but they are very different in performance and the goals of training in them. TKD and Shotokan are mostly similar in that they both are striking arts...
    Along with the prior similarities ;-)
  11. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    Yes, TKD has become different from Shotokan Karate. I don't recall anyone ever saying it was exactly the same. **However** when you have a martial art where the first form you learn is exactly the same as taikyoku ichi, but with some of the stepping altered slightly, you can't just brush off it's karate influences like they don't affect it at all (I took a few TKD classes, and have studied a little Shotokan and Shorei Ryu karate).

    edit: Also, I own a copy of the Muye Dobo Tongji. There's very little empty handed fighting contained in it, and even less that looks like Tae Kwon Do. There are a few things that may or may not be inside kicks, but a lot of the empty handed techniques (in the one chapter devoted to them, if I remember correctly) are wrestling techniques.
    Last edited: May 26, 2006
  12. ember

    ember Valued Member

    Similar and different. I actually spent several months in both TKD and Shotokan. I know that's not nearly long enough to get the true depth of them, but there's truth in all sides of the argument I've heard thus far.

    The WTF TKD dojang I studied at began with three Basic Forms before beginning the Tae Geuk series. They're published here:


    The surface structure of the forms is VERY similar to the three forms I learned in Shotokan. Both in starting sorta like Dae Geup Hyung with punches to either side, in the shape the forms make on the ground, the combinations of kick-step-punch.

    But as Brian / Coyote already pointed out, I was taught TKD with high walking stances, and Shotokan emphasized low, grounded stances.

    I... got into trouble with an instructor at my TKD dojang, because I was trying to prepare for both TKD testing on Tuesday, and Shotokan testing on Saturday, and our apartment didn't really have the room to practice. (Clueless newbie me!)

    I ended up talking with Grandmaster Rho that evening... he said something about TKD's emphasis on kicking, and karate's emphasis on hand strikes, and that the two would probably be a good combination. He wished me well on both tests, and I passed the TKD one.
  13. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Oh god this makes my head hurt.

    A couple of quick things here.

    The majority of Kuksool striking comes not from Shotokan, TKD, or DSD, but from Shippal Gi, aka Korean kung fu, aka Kwonbup. The TKD influence upon Kuksool is virtually nil.

    Taekwondo grew out of Dangsoodo and Kongsoodo, which were the Korean practices based on Japanese Shotokan, Shudokan, and Okinawan Shorin-ryu. While most modern Taekwondo use new forms, rather than the old Shorin-ryu forms, the techniques are still karate based, with the exception of the addition of acrobatic kicks, and of course, the evolution of Olympic sparring.

    To break it down, TKD/DSD/KSD = Korean Karate

    Kuksool = Daito-ryu AJJ plus Korean kung fu. I would not consider Shotokan a route art in Kuksool.
    Last edited: May 26, 2006
  14. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    It's Kwonbup, Korean kung fu based off of Ki Ji Kwon, a Long Fist style related to Taizu Long Fist.

    This would have more to do with the roots of Kuksool than TKD, which is where I believe this thread should be heading.
    Last edited: May 26, 2006
  15. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    And, finally, the uber-essay to end the TKD debate here, as I was told that this should be brought to a close to continue the discussion in a more Flaming Fan-waving fashion (hehe...)

    Bear with me as some of this may seem a bit semantic.


    Shotokan is a kind of Dangsoodo.

    Or, more correctly, Shotokan is a kind of Kongsoodo.

    Remember, Dangsoodo is the Korean pronounciation of the characters "唐手道". These are the Hanja used often to reference Karatedo of the Okinawan variety.

    空手道, or Kongsoodo, also pronounced Karatedo in Japanese, is often used to reference Karatedo of the Japanese variety.

    Dangsoodo and Kongsoodo are the same art, though each of a different flavor, reflecting Okinawan and Japanese culture. Thus, what I am saying is, there's Okinawan karate, and Japanese karate, but both are karate. They may practice different forms, or have various technical differences, but by enlarge, there is more similar than different.

    松濤館 means Pine Wave Institute. This is pronounced Shotokan in Japanese. In Korean, it is pronounced Songdokwan.

    The key to my point here rests in the last term, 館/kwan. This refers to a specific institution and curriculum of Kongsoodo.

    The Songdokwan (Shotokan school) was the root of many different schools of Korean Karate, but there were not Korean Songdokwan schools. The Shotokan was not established in Korea. Rather, Koreans who had trained in Songdokwan began their own kwan, the beginnings of Korean karate. The 靑濤館, Chungdokwan, the Blue Wave Institute, is the perfect example of this. In Japanese, this would be pronounced Seitokan...

    Ironically, it can also be pronounced Shotokan in Japanese.

    Thus, Shotokan is not Dangsoodo or Taekwondo.

    I would offer this summation for you.

    The Okinawan expression of "karate" is referenced using the characters 唐手道, Dangsoodo, Tang Hand Way. 少林流, Shorin-ryu, or in Korean, Sorim-ryu, is one style of the Tang Hand Way.

    The Japanese expression of "karate" is referenced using the characters 空手道, Kongsoodo, the Empty Hand Way. 松濤館, Shotokan, the Pine Wave Institute, or Songdokwan, is just one style of the Empty Hand Way.

    Now we come to Taekwondo.

    跆拳道, Taekwondo, of any variety, still bears a great deal more in common with Kongsoodo and Dangsoodo than difference. While new forms may have been created utilizing innovative kicking techniques, by and large the majority of techniques found in these forms are karate techniques. Taegyun, while commonly touted as having a great influence on Taekwondo, is actually regarded as having very little influence by most Korean martial scholars. Taekwondo's kicking techniques are based on modern Korean innovation within the realm of Korean karate concepts. Most Taegyun practitioners regard Taekwondo as Koreanized import art that has little to do with their own art. Thus, while there is much that differentiates Taekwondo from Japanese and Okinawan karate, there is more that makes it similar.

    Thus, in keeping with the above summation:

    The Korean expression of "karate" is referenced using the characters 跆拳道, Taekwondo, the Stomping Fist Way (the first character is often mistranslated, even by Koreans, as meaning to kick. It more properly means to stop or to smash with the foot.) 靑濤館, the Blue Wave Institute, is just one style of the Stomping Fist Way.

    Dangsoodo Moodukkwan was made up of Shorin-ryu forms which Hwang Kee learned from books (Shotokan or ****o-ryu) and training in Chungdokwan.

    However, through his research of the Mooyaedobotongji's kwonbup chapter, Hwang Kee created the Chilsung and Yukro forms. He used these as the foundation for his new art, Soobakdo, an almagamation of his karate, Taiji, and Shaolin Long Fist studies.

    Outside of this, the material in the Mooyaedobotongji has had no influence on Taekwondo, despite claims to the contrary.
  16. AirNick

    AirNick Valued Member

    I really wish I didn't use shotokan as an example when I started this thread!
  17. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

    thanks madmonk, very informative. pretty much summed up what i had guessed about kuk sool just from observation of other styles. also found the stuff about the roots of tkd very interesting to.
  18. Grippereeno

    Grippereeno New Member

    Am i the only one who is lovin JSun's picture of that troll ha ha ha....
  19. Wolf

    Wolf Totalitarian Dictator

    Thanks Monk (the Mad one :D)! I hope that answers the question of shotokan's (and other japanese art's) influence on TKD. Now let's see if this thread can get back to KSW's roots. :D
  20. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    thats a very good summary...
    I could and am tempted to get into the kanji analysis and the reasons why TSD is not TKD...but this is a Kuk Sool forum ;-)
    So I wont ;-)
    Maybe another day another thread ;-)
    You do have ALOT of good knowledge though, I see you do your research ;-) Either that or you are one of Hwang Hyung Chuls e-spies!!! LOL

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