KSW: Children's classes

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by justinksw, Jun 6, 2005.

  1. justinksw

    justinksw Valued Member

    Our school offers a program called 'Tiny Tigers' which is geared for young children ages 4-7 to get them ready for the older classes. There has been some controversy over 'striping' of their belts with some of the parents. Our instructor teaches the kids techniques, forms, and falling - just like the older kids get. Not all of the kids 'get' the forms until they are a bit older. The stripes are given out based on a few things: what they have accomplished, how long they've been there, and attendance. With that many things, I have told her that she might want to make it based solely on level of accomplishment, to avoid parents from saying 'why did he get a stripe and she didn't?'.

    There has been a lot of disgruntled parents lately and I am trying to come up with the best way to keep the kids learning, focused, and keep the parents happy.

    How do you recognize advancement in very young children? Do you use stripes on their belt? If so, what milestones do you use to mark the advancement?

    In the young children's class, what activities do you teach? Do you teach them forms and techniques? What other activities do you teach?

    Thanks in advance,
    Justin :)
     
  2. ember

    ember Valued Member

    Hi Justin!

    I heard that our school offered "Tiny Tigers" before my time there, but it has since been discontinued. Currently students don't generally start until they have reached 5 years old, although a very rare & focused child may start at 4 1/2.

    Currently our striping system is pretty simple. All junior colored belts (under 13 and below brown belt) get a black stripe on one side of their belt when they know all their techniques, and a white stripe on the other side when they know their form.

    They may not 'get' the form at the younger ages, but the important part is that they can do them with little or no prompting.

    More interspersed

    I haven't helped much with the junior-only classes since they tend to be offered while I'm still at work. However, there are also some young children in the evening classes that I do help with.

    Our school does forms and sparring (for Intermediate up) on Mondays/Tuesdays, and techniques on Wednesdays/Thursdays.

    In addition to that, we'll do basics, falling, blocking, a variety of games / relay races, and some work on the student creed. Once in a while there will occasionally be some short lessons on when not to use their training, ettiquette, sometimes a little meditation.

    A lot depends on how many instructors & assistants are there compared to students. They usually try to have 4-5 instructors for the juniors, which gives somewhere around a 4-1 student-teacher ratio in the evenings. (What little I've seen indicates the afternoon classes may be one or two instructors.)

    The main thing with the very young children seems to be breaking up activities, not staying with any one thing much longer than ~10 minutes at the white belt level. Techniques night and higher level classes are a little easier since there's more material to cover.

    Hope this helps!
     
  3. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    do you want to enjoy tiny tigers

    you will enjoy doing it much more if you have realistic expectations for progress.

    no forms - to complex
    no techniques - to dangerous

    lots of basic kicking and punching i suggest that you look outside of ksw for how to do this as there are only a few in ksw doing it well and safe.

    this can be a tremendous program but remember KISS

    Keep It Safe and Simple

    I have taught this for 10 years and my first 6 ttigers All got a brown belt and 4 of them got black belt and 2 are going for 2 dan( all junior ranks of course)

    sone tkd school on the west coast have HUNDERDS of t tigers and do well with them
     
  4. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

    you recognise advancement in children by testing them, just like you do for adults, you can teach the forms and tech's from five up and they will remember them, make the class fun finnish with a game, and test them when there ready. don't bow down to parent pressure, your the instructor and they should only test and be rewarded at you say so.
     
  5. JKN-Taylor

    JKN-Taylor New Member

    lol I get so happy when the 7-12 year olds listen to me in class… I’d be promoting them for things like getting into a straight line, answering sir, or paying attention when the Sr. instructor is talking.

    I’ve noticed a sign up for a new program called “lil’ dragons” I assume it’s the same thing (ages 3 - 6). I can’t even imagine teaching that class (I’m still new to teaching though). I would probably play a lot of games though. The older kids get excited about them (dodge ball(we use foam balls, instructors throw @ students!! ^_^), red light green light, relay races, nak-beop obstacle courses, foam sword blocking drills, ect). I’ve learned that with kids, you have to keep them interested and engaged. Do as many things in one class as you can. When you start to see their eyes roll into the back of their heads, you’ve probably been on that activity for too long.

    I’m too green to know much else. Good luck with that class!
     
  6. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    Yes but?!?!?


    As the teacher it is incumbent upon you to teach what is appropriate for the student. This is not about parent pressure. You simply can't teach algebra in kindergarten. Kuk Sool is great but it is not designed for little kids. Adapation is needed to teach this age group properly.
     
  7. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

    i disagree, you teach them the techs and forms as they are in the kids sylibus, over time it will become second nature and they will start to understand what it is they have been practicing. just like in gymnastics, you don;t not teach a young kid a backflip because its not designed for them, you just teach them it, there body (muscle memory) will learn the technique and the mind will understand it later on.
     
  8. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    Fine,,,, then you bear the liability of teaching combat intended joint locks to 4 year old and see if they don't end up injuring each other. you won't be teaching my kids.

    if they are not going to understand it until later then why teach it now?

    the kids curriculum is simply a short version of the adult stuff and was NOT designed with the KIDS in mind, or from a developmental perspective. It was a feeble attempt to make it "easier"for kids because they couldn't remember, understand or do everything. But it's not only the volume of skills that is the problem, it's the content and context also. the system needs to adjust to the student sometimes not just the other way around. Please open your mind to the idea that the curriculum is not gospel.
     
  9. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

    just to clear things up, i own my own school and do indeed teach joint locks and pressure points to children, children are not stupid they know what is right and they know what is wrong, and none of the kids i have ever teached over the last 8 years has ever accedentaly let alone dilberatly injured another child (thats what liability insurance is for). so in my teaching experiance so far it seems to work out fine. but as a school owner this is my choice and my risk.
     
  10. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

    just a quick thought. how many kuk sool practioners on map started when they were children, and did they learn the full kids sylibus or an ajusted one? if so did it make a differance?
     
  11. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest


    Impressive, I hope your luck is lifelong. I see the youngest kids hurt regularly at bb testing and in competition. they will make judgement errors on applied force during throwing that are dangerous, but you, and all other teachers deserve the benefit of the doubt. I understand your desire is deep, the kids are not at fault they try thier best, I'm not convinced that the benefits of joint locking outweigh the risks and the difficulty involved in teaching 4-8 year olds. But I hope your situation is common, and remains safe.
     
  12. ember

    ember Valued Member

    That again gets into the nature of the practice. The Tiny Tigers demos that I've seen were all white and yellow belts. Even among the older students, kids sometimes take a year just to reach yellow belt.

    At the white belt level, especially for children, we tend not to teach the *lock*. (Adults maybe, but it still tends to be at the Intermediate levels rather than beginners.) We focus on basic memorization of the movement.

    Have I mentioned the three steps of the learning process before? Memorization, precision, smoothness.

    Before that, not spelled out, is familiarization. Since Li'l Dragons just got started and is for very young children, expect it to stick with the familiarization / memorization end of instruction.


     
  13. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    you must be KJN harmons student

    all that your saying is true and good but i have taken this subject to child development experts ,,, I mean real experts.....PhD,s MD, etc and all of them ask "why do the need to do this" It's not about if they are able, it's about whats appropriate for learning... real learning,, not regurgitation of skills. I can teach it to them and they can learn it in some cases ,, but does that make it the "right " thing to do. I wonder if we (wksa teachers) are really looking @ this from the right perspective. are we teaching it because it's the syllabus .... that sounds like a very dogmatic approach. Use another example ... low spin kick ... probably the last kick an adult would use for S/D and physiologically a terrible mess for the supporting knee and ankle. so we have the mature adults put the knee down, (just like KSN incedentally in the ksw videos on ddmk 15).
    But we can't see our way to accomidating the childrens safety ?? when they are faced with an equally dangerous training situation.
     
  14. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest

    Btw

    No not deliberately, that has NEVER happend in my experience either, accidentally many times. they won't complain to you they just quit.. so you would never know it on the other hand... Your liability ins is useless if you are found to be negligent to safe teaching practices based on INDUSTRY standards (not ksw standards). So the expert witness will compare what you do to the rest of the industry tkd, tsd, karate, etc.. and find that almost none are teaching that type skill to that age group and probably determine that you are presenting an unnecessary risk on purpose. Im not trying to be confrontational but that what happens in court .......and if that is the finding your policy will most likely not protect you and consequently, it will cover no expense. @ that point you are personally financially liable. I have seen this happen and it can be devestating or avoided. I have never seen any MA organization come to the rescue and assist in this scenario, in fact they tend to distance themselves for thier own protection.... as they should.

    Just consider it and look at your retention rate for kids ,,, how many quit b4 black belt, or even DBN. If you lose more than 20% on avg at each rank. you might consider whats causing that. Don't assume. look at the numbers, they don't lie.
     
  15. AirNick

    AirNick Valued Member

    I was in kids class till I was brown belt. Never did me any harm.

    (sorry, that isn't adding anything to the conversation!)
     
  16. baubin2

    baubin2 New Member

    About half the kids in my class quit before even reaching red belt.... and we were all college age! There are plenty of reasons someone could want to quit MA besides getting hurt at it. Maybe they don't like it, maybe they've lost interest, maybe their parents have gotten cold feet, maybe they can no longer afford it, etc. You need to be careful with numbers; they may not lie outright, but they're very good at misleading.

    I agree, you need to be careful teaching kids, especially younger kids. And personally I think KSW allows people to reach the higher belt ranks a little too young. But as long as you're careful, make the lessons fun, and keep things safe and controlled, I see no problem with teaching little kids some basic MA stuff. Even techniques, as long as you're careful and impress on them not to use the know-how casually.
     
  17. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

    on one final note, there is a big differance between uk and us law, and in the compensation culture of both countrys. if you think the risks of teaching the kuk sool kids sylibis is to great, then you allways have the option of not teaching children. if you do teach kids ma my advice would be to allways have parents welcome and present in your class, that way you will have a string of independent witnesses to vouch for your teaching methods.

    "I agree, you need to be careful teaching kids, especially younger kids. But as long as you're careful, make the lessons fun, and keep things safe and controlled, I see no problem with teaching little kids some basic MA stuff. Even techniques, as long as you're careful and impress on them not to use the know-how casually."

    the quote above pretty much sums up the job of a good teacher.
     
  18. Choiyoungwoo

    Choiyoungwoo Guest



    Thats a good start, but don't you think a professional should work toward raising standards? keeping up with the best practices and principles of the industry? learning more about, not only what to teach, but how to do teach it better? Please don't take this wrong but I sense a bit of complacency in that statement. Good enough is not good enough!! I want your generation of instructors to do and teach it better than the ones who came before you. The old masters have left us a Gold Mine of skills, they deserve and will get recognition and respect for that,,, it will be their legacy... But since then we have learned so much about sports medicine, childhood development, and other things, that they never knew, the info just wasn't there. WE MUST move forward and improve on what we do. I know it looks to some like "watering it down",, but for every MA teacher that says that based on anecdotal evidence in a dojang, I can find twice as many degreed professionals that will recommend it based on hard science.

    "that's what's on the syllabus " is the worst reason to teach anything.
     
  19. TXKukSoolBB

    TXKukSoolBB Valued Member


    If not the worst...I would say top 5. Also, "because that was how I was taught" is another.
     

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