Kotô Ryû trailer with Kacem Zoughari

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Big Will, Apr 26, 2010.

  1. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Sandstorm posted


    Its in amatsu magazine and in Bufu.

    Although if you have a copy of Kukishin Zensho theres some techniques in there that seem to describe what one would call Ninjutsu for example...

    Inso no jutsu: Grass concealment method.
    In Ka no jutsu: Fire concealment method
    Insui no ho: Water concealment method
    Kajutsu: Fire arts

    Of course these arts were probably in most old ryu, but they do sound quite ninja like.

    In fact the amatsu magazine claims he was going to call it Kukishin Ninpo, thus suggesting that Takamatsu may have used the term "Ninpo" when he wanted. I'm making an assumption here, but whose to say that the term koshi and Ninpo is not interchangable?

    Garth
     
  2. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Pankeeki posted

    Agreed

    Of course

    Yes but you cant come on here, claim something is true when you can present no evidence.

    And then claim people ar making assumptions because they ask for your evidence.

    By the way do you read medieval Japanese?

    In other words ask your instructor. Hmm where have i heard that before?

    But if he's in the Uk i might just go

    Garth
     
  3. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    No - not ask your instructor. 99% of instructors would not know the answer.
     
  4. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    Hi Garth,
    I don't claim it is true, I say that based on the evidence I've seen I am convinced it is true. I don't have the evidence I've seen in my possesion, nor will I ever have it. So really all I can give is my opinion, based on what i've seen. I also said it could not be proven online.
    Now, if new evidence comes up I might change my mind.
    I also said you might reach different conclusion.
    I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

    What is you definition of medieval japanese. Do you mean Kanbun?
    Did I say anything about medieval japanese?
    I'm really not very good at reading japanese but i'm good enough to get at least an idea of what the writing is about, and understand a little bit of what is written, especially when it is related to the ryuha and movement. I'm not an expert on the japanese language.

    It's not ask your instructor, or is sensei or Kacem your instructor?
    It's go to the source and make up your own mind instead of spinning theories online with no foundation in anything real.

    The only reason I got involved in this thread is that I see people talking online and putting out theories left and right but don't want to go do anything that will give them an answer but sit behind a keyboard.

    BTW you can fly to Rotterdam very cheap from a lot places in the UK (and the rest of europe)

    TTYL,

    Ferry
     
  5. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    My belief is that it is has not been lost - since Takamatsu sensei took the time and care to transmit it in (at least) written form to his successor, and also I believe that (and this has nothing to do with the Tôjutsu, this is just my speculation) based on the immense amount of knowledge passed on, some of it could have been passed on in written form only - but still passed on. And as Hatsumi sensei progressed in his practice he understood more and more of it, hence sentences like "I am still learning from Takamatsu sensei".

    Just speculation though.
     
  6. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Yes I've done it myself twice. There are good hostels there too.

    But I don't think this subject is important enough for Garth, so I doubt he'll go.
     
  7. Manga

    Manga Moved On

    Big Will said - "My belief is that it is has not been lost - since Takamatsu sensei took the time and care to transmit it in (at least) written form to his successor, and also I believe that (and this has nothing to do with the Tôjutsu, this is just my speculation) based on the immense amount of knowledge passed on, some of it could have been passed on in written form only - but still passed on. And as Hatsumi sensei progressed in his practice he understood more and more of it, hence sentences like "I am still learning from Takamatsu sensei".

    So what you're saying here if I'm not mistaken is that Hatsumi inherited some written materials though not necessarily the physical training behind them and that he has reconstructed this piece of the Gyokko-ryu (perhaps with Kacem's assistance in some measure)? So the writing was genuine, the densho for Gyokko-ryu Tojutsu was genuine but in effect what we're looking at here (according to what you just wrote) is exactly what I've been saying all along apart from the point that I and others speculated that the material maybe have been recovered from materials written by Takamatsu but given to other sources.

    Of course, I note your disclaimer pointing out that it is just your speculation but it ties into the speculation of myself and many others quite neatly, don't you think?

    There's nothing wrong with recovering/reconstructing "lost" sections of ryuha. Why people have to cover it up like a shameful secret is beyond me. Be honest and let people accept it for what it is. I'm sure this Gyokko-ryu Tojutsu is pretty amazing material but it will forever be colored now because of people trying to obfuscate its recent history.

    Personal note - I know it's not polite to omit "sensei" after Hatsumi and Takamatsu etc but I'm omitting it for clarity and to avoid typing the word endlessly. Please forgive my omission.
     
  8. Pankeeki

    Pankeeki Valued Member

    What I don't understand is that you assume things are lost or reconstructed based on nothing but it not being taught openly and named as this before.
    I think that is a very big step to make based on our limited knowledge of what happened in japan over the last 30+ years of training, including all the private encounters sensei had with everybody.
    Give me one reason why sensei would have gotten the paperwork but not the physical training to go with it? There is no logic in that.

    Why would he reconstruct it? In order to have more stuff to teach that people cannot do anyway? Don't you think that is kind of odd? Don't you think sensei has better things to do with his life then to reconstruct stuff with Kacem over a cup of tea?
    So that Kacem can give interesting seminars?

    And why do you keep insisting that Takamatsu gave stuff to others that he didn't give to Hatsumi sensei? Also very unlikely in my opinion when you consider the sole successor bit.

    Does anybody here know the amount of material that was passed to sensei by Takamatsu sensei? Has any of you been to the airing of the scrolls in noda? Do you really think all this material is in the books and DVD's sensei published for the masses?
    Have any of you actually seen anything in sensei's possesion except for the few photos in his books. My guess is no. Correct me when I'm wrong.

    not fact, just my opinion ;)
    Ferry
     
  9. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    No, the physical training was of course behind. I'm just saying - and again, this is my speculation regarding other possible parts not the Tôjutsu - that there may be parts that were transmitted through writing only. And this is a transmission as well. If something is lost, it is not transmitted. I am talking about TRANSMISSION. And of course practice is necessary, but often the practice comes after the transmission has been done - first you need to know what to practice.

    And in the case of purely written transmission, my GUESS is that it is something only the person receiving it can understand and make something out of - based on prior training and practice with the master of course.
     
  10. Manga

    Manga Moved On

    Pankeeki said - "Give me one reason why sensei would have gotten the paperwork but not the physical training to go with it? There is no logic in that."

    Oh? Kishajutsu anyone? Bajutsu anyone? Lots of ryuha end up losing elements over time for one reason or another. Those elements continue to exist and be passed down within the writings of the school but not as actual physical techniques unless the soke or someone designated by the soke undertakes an attempt to reconstruct those writings into actual techniques. It happens all the time. Does that answer your point regarding logic?

    Also, I suggest you read "Renovation And Innovation In Tradition" by Ellis Amdur in which he not only documents the recovery of a section of Toda-ha Buko-ryu Naginata but also gives the thoughts of Otake sensei of the Katori Shinto-ryu on renovation.
     
  11. noname

    noname Valued Member

    :)




    So the fact that I've heard Hatsumi-soke say some VERY interesting things on his dvd's, things that BLATANTLY CONTRADICT what many shihan teach, means that he is obligated to show me, over the internet, the evidence for his assertions????


    :rolleyes:
     
  12. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    BTW - thank God martial arts transmission has nothing to do with scientific methodology. Otherwise Garth maybe would have had a point.
     
  13. garth

    garth Valued Member

    noname posted

    If Hatsumi makes a claim, of course the onus is on him to prove those claims.

    The same rule goes for everyone, whether scientist, historian, fundamentalist christian or martial arts master.

    BTW I would be interested which claims Dr Hatsumi make (although not surprised) that go contrary to the shihan.

    Garth
     
  14. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Big will posted

    Big Will, you make it sound like I dont attend seminars.

    If Kacem comes to the UK and its possible for me to go (e.g not at work) then I will go.

    Garth
     
  15. Sandstorm

    Sandstorm Valued Member

    Hi,
    There were other ryu-ha that Hatsumi did not become Soke of that Takamatsu Sensei gave to others, this is well documented in the forms of makimono and densho that the current Soke holds:

    Hontai Kukishin Ryu bojutsu-given from Takamatsu Sensei to Sato Kinbei Sensei.

    Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin ryu bojutsu from Takamatsu Sensei to Masaji Kimura Sensei.

    Shinden Tatara ryu from Takamatsu Sensei to Sato Kinbei Sensei.

    Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin ryu Jujutsu from Takamatsu Sensei to Kimura Masaji Sensei.

    Hontai Takagi Yoshin ryu Jujutsu(Ishitani line) from Takamatsu Sensei to Sato Kinbei Sensei.

    Gikan ryu Koppojutsu from Takamatsu Sensei to Sato Kinbei Sensei, I am aware of the dispute on this ryu-ha, however many have said Hatsumi has only an addition for Gikan ryu on his Koto ryu scroll. I do know however the current Soke, 14th generation, has makimono and densho for this ryu-ha and has taught kata patterns.

    I believe there were other things Ueno Takashi received that were different.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2010
  16. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Sandstorm

    I was also under the same opinion as you

    Garth
     
  17. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Big will posted

    Its the same in historical research too.

    And if both the historical and scientific methods were used and adhered to we wouldnt get all these rumours flying around, where the rumour becomes accepted, and any talk of the asking for evidence to back up said rumour is met with disdain.

    Garth
     
  18. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Yes, but we are talking about ryû-ha that he did in fact become Sôke of.
     
  19. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Not at all, I made it sound like you are not interested enough to travel overseas for this matter.
     
  20. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan

    Classical japanese martial arts transmission does not work that way - classical japanese martial arts transmission is about the master and the student, and everyone else is completely out of the equation (including yourself).
     

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