Koryu: Techniques only

Discussion in 'Koryu Bujutsu' started by Graham, Jul 8, 2012.

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  1. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    I'm only going to say this once and then I'm going to ban certain people. If anyone starts bringing their personal conflicts from the Ninjutsu forum, derailing discussions and spending half their posts taking potshots at each other they will get a ban. I don't care how minor the dig is, the moment I see a snarky, bitchy, spiteful or childish post aimed at someone else the ban will happen.
  2. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    People who know me and what I'm doing know how damned busy I am at the moment. My presence on MAP as of late has been a rarity, but I do keep an eye on things. Read the stickys at the top of the thread.

    Good conversations are acceptable. Derailment of discussions and ad hominem attacks are not.

    Please proceed.
  3. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    With deference to Frodo and Steve, this will be as dispassionate as possible.

    I really do love the way you tell me what I've been doing, and how I'm currently doing them. Honestly, RP, I never left. But your posting style is frustrating, with your inability to accept that you might not know something that someone else might, and as you were basically running the posting in the Ninjutsu section, and this one was quiet, I didn't post much. I would read what you were writing, see the issues with it, see how you'd react to an opposing viewpoint, and decided it wasn't worth it. You're really proving my point here, by the way.

    Then let's look at the beginning of this. Your actual post starts by you saying that you haven't read past the first page, but take it upon yourself to correct Sketco in his concept of whether or not Koryu are as, or even more effective than the sporting systems he was putting forth (that don't worry so much about the history and tradition side of things, only being concerned with personal performance). Your arguments about a boxer being cut up and stabbed before he even got to the "armoured guy" was honestly completely irrelevant, as you were discussing two completely different contexts' that have nothing to do with each other. You might as well have been correcting him if he'd said that modern racing cycles (pedal-type, Tour de France) are better than old penny-farthings, as they are better designed for the races they deal in, and you said "ha, but good luck in beating a tank!". It was a deeply flawed concept, and frankly beside the point.

    The main problem with Sketco's argument, though, wasn't anything to do with who was more effective. His argument was that everything should adapt, and anything that doesn't immediately apply to current application for successful combat/competition, is pointless, and Koryu shouldn't bother with them, instead, they should update their techniques, and forget the history, traditions etc. The argument against that is that Koryu aren't concerned with personal performance, they are concerned with safe and correct preservation of the system, so his values (valid for him) have no place in a discussion of Koryu. By yourself trying to show just how effective Koryu methods can be, you were accepting his premise that that was a dominant value. And that's why you were wrong in your first post. You were (badly and inaccurately) pointing out a flaw that supported his basic premise, which was the real flaw in his argument.

    Except that that idea wasn't really questioned at all. Then again, contextually you got it quite wrong as well. If we look at a system such as the one that Scott and a few others here train in, it is well regarded for direct, powerful, and highly effective system... within it's context (which is a dueling system using Japanese swords). Saying that boxing isn't as effective as Sketco thinks because Scott's really good at dueling with a sword is to miss entirely the construct of each system, and what it's designed to be effective at. Sketco's idea that boxing and wrestling are effective is absolutely valid, really. His idea that you can learn such systems without being concerned with history and traditions, discussions of strategy, being part of a larger representative "family", having an amount of extraneous information being taught alongside, and more, is also absolutely valid. Just not when it comes to Koryu. So your argument against him was really no argument at all, as you didn't read enough, or understand enough to see what the actual problem with his comments were.

    Yes, today. That's what we're talking about here, modern (current) practitioners of Koryu, and what is the emphasis of actually studying a Koryu system. I'm perfectly aware of how things have changed in various Ryu over time, including when and why a large number of things have changed for many, and the point remains that the primary emphasis for Koryu (generalizing as much as is possible in this area) is on preserving the Ryu itself. Efficiency is only ever as is dictated or desired by the Ryu in question.

    Honestly? Mainly because you keep getting things wrong.

    No, RP, in reality. That was not an opinion, it was an observation.

    Really? Again, it depends on the Ryu. Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu was passed down on the understanding of Jisso Enman (without adaptation). TSKSR teaches that it's methods are handed down from Heaven, so again it's about preserving the Ryu. Some systems went through more of a period of development, some didn't. It really depends on the Ryu.

    Again, though, you're pretty off-base.

    Yet you continued with it, without taking note of the way Hayes was used (as a hypothetical, assuming most here would be familiar with him... I'm not sure why he would be used in a Koryu discussion, but that's another thing).

    Again, "accepting the premise" means you were making your discussion/argument based on the basic value that Sketco put forth. Which is exactly what you did. Your explanation supports the way I read it, by the way.

    Really? You're the one that seems to think I'm trying to impress someone, I certainly don't think I am. So my question is who do you think I'm trying to impress? That's not a question for me.

    You really don't want to go back down that road, RP. I've never tried to imply any level of ability, only to discuss things from my understanding. If you want to read into that, it's not my issue.

    Then how did you manage to completely miss the discussion where his misunderstanding was pointed out repeatedly to the point where he took his ball and went home?

    Breaking my sentences halfway to continually argue against out-of-context statements shows that you really don't have that much of an argument, you realize. But more to the point, your examples were more flawed than Sketco's statement in the first place, and completely missed the actual problem with his comments.

    So no argument again?

    No, I actually want an answer this time. You're in the Koryu section, and you're trying to discuss Koryu. When pushed before, the most you've ever said is that you have experience in "the Koryu taught in the Bujinkan", and hinted at some slight experience in maybe one or two others, but have never recognized that the Bujinkan approach is frankly irrelevant here, and have never clarified any further details on where you get your flawed understanding from. In private conversation with at least one other member here I know you have stated that you really don't have any experience in Koryu, so I am asking again: What experience do you have that means you actually know what is being discussed? If you can't answer that (PM is fine, if you don't want to bring it out in the open... I'll clear some space for you), then I'm going to suggest that you are basing your ideas on a lack on knowledge and experience, so your comments should be taken in that light.

    I agree that bringing in Hayes, or anything to do with the X-Kan methods is out of place here, but you did continue with it.

    No, as a known name used for referencing a hypothetical construct, which you chose to take literally as referring to the actual person himself, and made it a discussion of that individual as well as Kobudo himself, missing the debating method that Kobudo was using, and ignoring the idea that another organisation does things differently.

    But interrupting this discussion for it is fine?

    I'd say you're more familiar with the way the Bujinkan arts are taught in Japan in your dojo, but honestly when it comes to the particular Takamatsuden arts I'm not that convinced. For instance, you seem unaware of the way they are taught in other organisations, the way other branches differ or are similar, and more. So yes, your understanding of Shoden Menkyo (as applied in the Genbukan) is flawed. But most importantly, those arts really have no place in this discussion, the way they are taught now. This isn't the Ninjutsu section.

    You could at least try, though.

    Firstly, who says my information has come from this hemisphere? Secondly, stop dodging questions. If you don't want to answer, say so. But this elite, greater-than-thou attitude, not deigning to lower yourself to actually provide answers is why people have such a problem with you. Again, this isn't the Ninjutsu section, and you are far from the most informed person with the best connections here.

  4. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    [walks up to thread]


    [walks away]
  5. Da Lurker

    Da Lurker Valued Member

    joining a ryu is like marrying a girl with a very traditional, close-knit family. you cannot say "I don't like your brother, kick him out! :evil:" without severe repercussions and maintaining your bride's ORIGINAL family. you may influence her brother and change him a lil' bit, but in essence he is still her brother, his place in the family dynamics established. on your part, you may be influenced too, and wherever you go, you might carry a piece of her family with you.

    learning the ryu by its techniques only is like watching the osbournes, the kardashians, or any reality-tv that shows family. you may act like them, be influenced by them, even replicate their family dynamics to your own family, but you will never ever know or be able to penetrate, influence and be part of THEIR family (and establishing your place in the dynamic) without meeting them and being part of their family.
  6. Da Lurker

    Da Lurker Valued Member

    that oughta have a smiley icon! :p
  7. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Sorry, been busy(and banned but oh well). After this, I have nothing to add about our personal history. If you want to feel free to PM me.

    ps-just rereading Frodo's comments posted before your attack, I'm surprised that it was allowed to stand. Anyway, if I get banned again for replying so be it.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2012
  8. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Our personal history isn't the issue here, it's your misunderstandings of the topic, RP. So PM isn't really necessary in that regard.

    You're telling me that I've been away, and that I'm "back", I point out that I didn't go anywhere, there just wasn't much reason I found to post, and you continue to argue with me as to what I've been doing and why. How would you categorize that in terms of telling me what I've been doing? And I don't really know any way for you to have anything that I would consider information on myself for you to make any such claim, and inferring that you would is just frankly baseless.

    Firstly, by "running the posting", I was referring to the way you were the dominant person starting threads, and running the conversation in your typical way. While that's fine, it's not something I wanted to be involved in, as you have shown over and over again that you are really in no way open to any other points of view. As for the "physical" side of what I bring, that's never been a part of any of my arguments or discussions, and frankly, your take on the clips found didn't really seem to be anything more than an attempt to discredit me without much base. You didn't recognize the kata, the line it came from, couldn't make any real complaints against it (other than things like "too much talking not enough doing" when I'm teaching... and explaining things... and a reference to a strike you consider done incorrectly, although you couldn't identify which one or why). But most importantly here is that none of that has any bearing on the conversation here at all. The Takamatsuden are far from relevant when we're discussing Koryu, so bringing it up again is yet another cheap shot without any basis. No matter your claim.

    So you didn't get why you were banned, then? Oh, and I don't do the birthday thing.

    Frankly, the flaw you found wasn't the actual flaw in his argument. Additionally, it wasn't a flaw the way you presented it. So no, RP, I didn't miss the point, you misunderstood the issue.

    See above.

    And again.

    Wow, I really don't know how many ways to explain this to you... the problem was that he was applying a false set of values to Koryu. His premise itself was flawed. His examples were simply an expression of his values, and when dealing with Koryu that value was irrelevant. Any argument against those examples showed you didn't get the problem in the first place.

    Uh... I'm the guy who understands the issue in the first place..? You know, the one who can see the actual problems in Sketco's take on things, from a Koryu perspective? Same as, well, Dean, Scott, Steve, even Stuart and other non-Koryu members here. The fact that you still don't get this only goes to show that you haven't really understood any of the thread from the beginning, let alone Koryu approaches.

    Yet you continue to miss it yourself.

    Uh... yes. Your post, and your continued approach, is accepting his premise. That, one more time, is not the same as saying you agree with it, it's saying that you are applying his premise when it should be thrown out from the beginning.

    Oh dear lord... no, RP, you have missed the basic argument from the beginning. I really do suggest you go back through the thread and see if you can understand what you're being told here.

    I really have no idea what you're talking about here... I'm talking about Scott's ryu and the context it is based in (which is duelling combat with a sword), and you're saying that "contexts change"? Are you trying to suggest that his ryu should deal with, say, knife defence and pistol disarmament? And as far as the mention of contexts here, Sketco presented boxing and wrestling, both of which have their particular contexts, which is very removed from the one found in Scotts ryu. Which just means that your argument by trying to put them both in the same context means you just simply don't get either of them at all.

    There's nothing personalized here at all. There are reasons I chose Scott's ryu, one of which is that it fits the description you gave while demonstrating how badly you'd gotten things. But some advice, if you others don't get the point you think you're making, try saying it differently. Especially when it looks like the point you're trying to make just doesn't make any sense.

    For crying out loud... effective in the context that Sketco was introducing them, as well as effective in the context they are designed for. You know, the sentence that preceded the one you took by itself to remove it's context? The entire statement is: "Saying that boxing isn't as effective as Sketco thinks because Scott's really good at dueling with a sword is to miss entirely the construct of each system, and what it's designed to be effective at. Sketco's idea that boxing and wrestling are effective is absolutely valid, really. His idea that you can learn such systems without being concerned with history and traditions, discussions of strategy, being part of a larger representative "family", having an amount of extraneous information being taught alongside, and more, is also absolutely valid. Just not when it comes to Koryu." Once again, taking a single sentence out of context shows how desperate you are to be seen as correct here. If we're going to see who's getting sloppy in their argument style.

    What you addressed was completely pointless, though. It's like arguing about the type of ink used for propaganda newspapers, rather than what is being printed with it.

    No. Seriously, you just seem to want to prove that you don't have much of a clue about Koryu here.

    I really do have to point out that the lack of licences isn't the reason that such people aren't really part of a Koryu discussion.

    Yes, RP, it is accepting the premise of his argument. By putting the merits of the premise to the side you are still accepting them as being there in the first place. This really is debating 101 here, and arguing because you don't realize the mistake you made, and refuse to be corrected doesn't make you any less wrong (such as your constant misuse of the word "trappings" on other threads).

    And all of this has exactly what to do with anything other than another attempt at taking a cheap shot, RP? I post here as a practitioner and interested student, not as a teacher, so your initial point is off base again.


    I was giving you an option to have some form of credibility, you choose not to take it, that's up to you.

    To demonstrate the issues in your putting yourself forward as having experience, as your own claims go against it.

    Seriously? I'd need to go to Japan, figure out who you are, track you down, bail you up, and ask directly to your face just for you to say "Well, I did a class or two of Yoshin Ryu naginata, then a friend took me to a training session of Meifu Shinkage Ryu which was interesting". Come off it. And the Bujinkan arts don't count, so take any understanding you think you have from them and your experience there and discount it from this discussion.

    My ego is fine, I'm not concerned with anything you think of as my "damaged image" (as I don't really see any damage there from any of the comments made here or elsewhere), what I'm trying to do is give you some way of showing you have a clue. So far, you haven't, and all evidence shows that you don't.

    Wow. You've mentioned a couple of times that you don't know how things are done in the Genbukan, but this is pretty blatant. Again, though, the Bujinkan arts are completely irrelevant here.

    Firstly, no, that's not what I was saying. Secondly, I am yet to be convinced that you really have experience in anything beside Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu... in other words, you may have had what you consider "deep, detailed" instruction in the kata from a range of levels of the different Ryu, but the idea of you having "trained and personal experience" in the individual Ryu themselves is something that I personally doubt on a range of levels, based on a number of things, including your posts here. But, one more time, that's completely irrelevant here, as the Bujinkan doesn't teach with Koryu methodology, isn't interested in Koryu approaches, and doesn't offer a Koryu experience. Now, I know that your standard response is that I'm not in Japan, and can't know what happens in certain Shihan's classes, so I'll put it this way. Hatsumi has no interest in teaching in a Koryu manner. His senior instructors teach their best understanding of Hatsumi's methods. Why on earth would anyone think that the senior instructors would be teaching directly against Hatsumi's wishes? Combine that with, well, every single piece of evidence ever shown, and it is doubtful to the extreme that anything like Koryu training occurs. The Bujinkan membership who think they have seen it have typically not understood what makes an approach a Koryu approach in the first place. And yes, that includes your posts here.

    Really? It's quite a standard response from you, though. Again, can you actually answer, say, a single question? Or are you just going to take pot shots and avoid them again?

    Hmm, that's a third mention of my "physical ability" in this post... which is really nothing to do with the thread or topic. I really don't have issues with anything, and said so when you started this. Frankly, it comes across as you knowing you are being out-argued by me, so have reached for anything you could to try to discredit me. It's annoying, but that's about it.

    This is the Koryu forum, mate. As such, I'm a little more in touch with this area than you are. When it comes to my "chosen path", I really have no clue what you're talking about. You couldn't be talking about my chosen Ninjutsu instructor, as that isn't relevant here. So I'm not really sure what you're thinking you're implying.

    And believe me, I am more than polite and respectful, but don't simply lie down and take the type of ill-informed blatant errors that you put up, nor the attitude you post them with. I'm really not interested in a PM conversation with you, though, I can't see you actually answering anything whatsoever.

    Let's see, then.
  9. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    I'm locking this thread because some of you can't post without behaving like children and taking cheap shots at each other.

    Chris and PR, drop the attempts at oneupmanship, the petty digs and the personal issues or you'll both end up banned. I am sick of having to wade through posts from you two in which you continue to snipe at each other despite warnings.
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