re Hi Kogusoku, Can you explain a little more about Takagi Ryu and Hontai Yoshin ryu Takagi ryu please? How did Kakuno come to inherit these two lines? Did Ishiya teach him both lines or did he have another teacher besides Ishiya?
Hi Based on Steves post on what makes a Koryu then I would say HYR is also a Gedai art as well and not a Koryu
Hi Kogusoku, sorry this is a bit of a personal question, but if we apply the Soke and Meiji-1868 cut of date to the letter, would that also make the Matsui-ha Sosuishi ryu of Matsui Hyakutaro Munetada born 1864 and recieved Shingen No Maki (Menkyo Kaiden) and established the Matsui-ha most likely after 1868, a gendai art? With the mainline still being Koryu?
Hi Kogusoku, Anything further on your assertion that Kakuno was the Soke of two different lines of Takagi ryu? (I think your quite wrong about that, btw)
HI The soke (Kakuno) handed Takagi Ryu to Tsutsui sensei then handed another line to Minaki with a different name. This is common.
Hi Poryu, So did Kakuno inherit two lines of Takagi ryu? Both Takagi ryu and Hontai Yoshin ryu go back through the younger and older Ishiyas to Yagi Ikugoro. (This is interesting because there has been a question mark over exactly which of the Ishiyas Kakuno trained with.)
No Look at my web site the lineages are there. That should explain it all for you. Who put that question mark there? The denkei states it all.
re Hi Kogusoku, You inferred that Kakuno was the soke of two lines of Takagi ryu. I dont think thats correct, partly because of the lineages published on hontaiyoshinryu.com and takagiryu.com (which is now defunct) and on Poryu's webste, as he mentions, and partly for other reasons. I asked Poryu to clarify if indeed your assertion that Kakuno received two lines of Takagi ryu was correct and he said no.
Hi Poryu, The denkei is what the persion at the end of the list believes to be the list of who succeeded whom as the head of the school. It doesn't necessarily state who taught whom.
Hi Kogusoku, Is it the case then that if a post-1868 recepient of Menkyo Kaiden (or equivalent) in a koryu creates a branch of that school, then the branch is not considered koryu (by virtue of the date of branching being post 1868)? While Yasumoto Akiyoshi received Menkyo Kaiden in the early eighties (I believe it was one of Inoue's first acts as Soke), Moto-ha Yoshin ryu was branched from Hontai Yoshin ryu in 1999.
If the menkyo kaiden recipient is promogulating the ryugi and is transmitting the tradition correctly without changing the name of said ryugi, then of course not. I'd remind you to look at phenomena like Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu where you have two different dojo - Only outside of Japan are they called "*****-Ha" and in Japan, they are just referred to as normal. Both are in contact with the soke. (In fact, I am in Japan at present and at the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai embu at Meiji Jingu earlier on this month, I actually saw the soke and the dojocho of one of the lines walking to the train station together after the usual drinking party.) However if the said menkyo kaidensha makes his/her own ryugi, then that is very much a different matter.
Hi based on this then......... Depending on if it was Kakuno sensei or Minaki sensei who created the name Hon Tai Yoshin Ryu at least 40 - 50 years after 1868, with alterations to structure and name, HYR is a Gendai and not a Koryu.
Isn't it something of a losing battle to try to generalise what is or is not Koryu? As Steve posted, in the "stickie" at the top of this forum, it's all on a case by case basis. Yes we can give a cut off point time wise I suppose but as for everything else well it's open somewhat, to a degree. IMO and based on what little understanding I have of koryu I don't think it's "fair" to take something someone like Steve has said and then go "oh well if you say that about x then it must apply to y". Rather it is better to show the nuances that exist between the koryu as opposed to trying to create one big over ruling "law" for what makes something Koryu or not, it just seems to be far to complex for people to create one big all encompasing definition which all koryu must meet.
Whether or not a lineage is koryu or not, like wheter or not something is a work of art or not, is largely in the eye of the beholder. There are schools that date from after 1868 that are considered koryu. There are schools that are not in the koryu organisations that are still held to be koryu. For the record, in my opinion both Hontai Yoshin ryu and Moto-ha Yoshin ryu are koryu.
lol Sorry for the verbiage Systematic. It's vital to be very exact with your meaning with these kinds of things. Welcome to the world of internet koryu discussion!
Hi guys, Just to clarify a couple of points from my Motoha Yoshin Ryu and ex-Hontai Yoshin Ryu perspective. I have studied Hontai Yoshin Ryu since 1985 when Yasumoto sensei visited the UK, I graded to shodan in 1993 in Japan and held the rank of 3rd dan when I left this year. After resigning from the main line of Hontai Yoshin Ryu I am now continuing my studies with Soke Yasumoto Akiyoshi and I am a member of the Motoha Yoshin Ryu UK group with the UK Sohonbu-cho Sensei Jeremy Carroll (chuden no maki). Motoha Yoshin Ryu is a branch of the Hontai Yoshin Ryu-Takagi Ryu lineage following the teachings of Minaki Soke (Hontai Yoshin Ryu) and Kanazawa Ichizu sensei (Takagi Ryu), and as with any menkyo kaiden (=full transmission and permission to become independent) holder who branches off a koryu main line it is still a koryu art even though the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai only recognises the main line of any koryu. The name Motoha Yoshin Ryu refers to following the original style of teachings of Hontai Yoshin Ryu-Takagi ryu lineage with the Moto (origin) & ha (style) kanji and it also has reference to Yasumoto sensei's name. As an example Hontai Yoshin Ryu-Takagi Ryu was the original name for the Ryu but after Minaki soke organised the techniques into the modern Kata that are practiced now by Hontai Yoshin Ryu he renamed the ryu Fumon Yoshin Ryu in order to distinguish it from the original style. Minaki soke later renamed the art as Hontai Yoshin Ryu and it is still considered as a koryu. Minaki soke was also a founder member of the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. The lineage does not break just because a Menkyo Kaiden holder uses their permission to become independent. There are also other recent divisions within the lineage including Minaki soke passing the Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu scrolls and soke title of Kukishin Ryu to Matsuda Kyodo which he then passed on to his training partner Fumon Tanaka (N.B. I saw Matsuda Kyodo last year, he still teaches Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo at the Imazu Budokai/AKA HYR Sohonbu Dojo). There are also seeral others Takagi Ryu and Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Hontai Kukishin Ryu etc., and although I am not personally knowledgeable about all of these Ryuha I feel that I should consider them as legitimate koryu branches even though they have been distinguished by a slightly different name and the fact that many of these transitions happened in the modern era. The lineage on this web page was provided by Soke Yasumoto http://www.motohayoshinryu.co.uk/history5.htm Regarding grades Motoha Yoshin Ryu uses both dan and den grades although once the den grades are presented Yasumoto Soke told me that only the den rank should be referred to. Regarding teaching in Scotland, I closed the Scottish dojo as the students were in the Army and were posted abroad. I now operate a full time dojo in Carlisle just south of the border teaching Motoha Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu, along with Yasumoto Soke's teaching we retain the full modern syllabus of Hontai Yoshin Ryu in our dojo. Last month Yasumoto soke name my dojo the Northern England Yoshinkan Dojo. If any of you would like information on studying with us or attending our events in Carlisle as guests please do not hesitate to email me. I hope you all have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year Regards, Andy
