Although a pollaxe is more like this @Stolenbjorn That is essentially what winding is. Staying at the sword (am Schwert) to gain leverage and position. Once you have gained the position you can thrust, slice, or cut.
Jeeez IF I managed to get past the pointy bit by the time I reached the guy at the other end I'd be too tired to cut him. regards koyo
Nevermind that said man with said pollaxe would be encased in armor, and would probably laugh at being cut at
More or less. Basically winding is turning the sword along its long axis while trying to gain leverage and take the opponent's sword off-line. It's the heart and soul of German Longsword technique, really. Related to winding are the duplieren and mutieren, which are common winding-like techniques. The duplieren is if you have a bind from two simultaneous overhand strikes (for example), and your opponent is giving firm pressure in the bind, take your left hand (assuming you're right handed... I'm a southpaw) and push the pommel under your right arm and strike your opponent behind his sword to the other side of the head. The opponent's pressure will force his blade into your crossguard and you've hit him with virtual impunity. A mutieren is usually done when your opponent binds weakly. Catch his weak with your strong and wind the back edge over his blade and thrust into a lower target. Hard to pull off, but if he raises his hands to defend himself, you can then do a duplieren and smack him anyway. Best regards. -Mark
We do similar things. Gripping the blade with the off hand is called "half-swording". It can be done, even with rather sharp blades if done correctly. It can be done to assist a high horizontal strike (called a zwerch) that has not hit its target but the point still stands before the opponent's face. It allows a thrust to be made while making it harder for the opponent to put your point offline. We also do things like let the sword hang over our back as cover while closing for a throw. It's called durchlauffen (or running through). Do you guys do that? Best regards, -Mark
Just out of curiosity koyo, which throw were you about to apply in that photo. That entry would've made for a great ko soto gari
Hi archibald Coming from a judo background (many years ago) I am right there with you ko sotogari would be perfect and we do use judo techniques A LOT inour aikido riai. The technique employed on the day was to enter deeply into the rear kuzushi and execute a sword cut "washing over" the attacker. The aikido technique below is a version of it unarmed irrimi nage. regards koyo
Hi Langenswert The technique you describe sounds very much like our kessa giri.The musubi (instant of contact) has been high and his cut could have overpowered mine.So I let my blade "fall" while covering my side as I enter. Had his cut been more diagonal my sword remains "on my back" to allow entry. Since our weapons work must relate exactly to our hand techniques we give prominance to body evasion and rarely meet the attack directly. Sorry for the bad photo but I think it helps a little with the explanation. regards koyo I love these exchanges, the boys at the makotokai are beginning to read them so that they can get a heads up on what we may be doing at the next practice.
Aah, I see the relationship....interesting. In the Tsutsumi Hozan syllabus we have what is called the Kentai Ichi no Kata - kata of sword and body in accord. There are ten kata in total (each with an armed and unarmed application), and the fifth technique of the first set is irimi nage, but a linear one that I don't often see. The kenjutsu is suri-age while stepping in and cutting across the neck. The jujutsu is to use 'kawashi' body movement while applying a one handed pulling block before stepping in and cutting across his neck with your arm and body, throwing him back. I have seen these principles in many different sword styles and cultures.
Excellent thread! The descriptions of vor/nach/indes (love to know how to pronounce those!) sound exactly like the sen sen no sen, sen, and sen no sen that I learned and Koyo so nicely described. Koyo, couple of things: 1) Did you mean kesagiri? Not kiriage? Kesagiri is kiriage's opposite number right, as it means 'grass cutter' (it finishes down, whereas kiriage finishes up of course)... I'm not sure where your explanation of kesagiri fits in with the winding explanation... 2) It seems to me that duplieren would almost fit uke nagashi (dripping/flowing 'block')... as in the 4-5th move of the 31 jo kata (after the tsuki, the overhead protect and drop the jo down your back to come back for shomen - which fits nicely into a strong shomen uchi or a tsuba ate depending on the maai)... whereas the mutieren would correspond to the kendo technique of harai-kote (or even the receiving technique from the third kata is it...? Can't remember the name...), which depending on the maai would transition into hiki waza or kote nuki waza...? (Sorry to you nonJMA stylists about the sudden flood of Japanese terminology... if Koyo thinks we're on the same path I'll endeavour to find a good picture to illustrate what I mean on the net! ... or even try to describe them! ) If these correspond then tsuba-ate, kesagiri AND kiriage would be results of the winding, rather than the whole process. 3) Do you always use the t-kamae as a default shizentai? I was taught in aiki as in kendo that shizentai is just that - a neutral squared off posture, known to Musashi as happou no kamae (8-direction posture) if I remember rightly. What about you Western stylists, and Korean stylists? What's your default stance?
That photo definitely looks like kiriage into uke nagashi to me... maybe you use different terminology...
Hi Mr Punch Good to hear from you again. We tend to use the term kessa giri to suggest a covering cut as shown in the photo. As you know kessa is a diagonel cut upwards or downwards as you describe.Your terminology is the correct usage. The technique you describe from the jo kata is similar to what we are discussing. Yes. The triangular posture we call sankaku ho is derived from, if we are walking naturaly and stop with one foot forward, the posture we are in is called san kaku ho.We tend to maintain this kamae at all times during training. There is an exercise called happo giri which has us cutting in eight directions from the basic posture. WE use sankaku ho to present a smaller target area to the opponent then when we enter triangularly it is "sharpened" to hito emi which means to make the body small. Great posts from the western swordsmen don't you think.? regards koyo edit A photo would be helpfull for those not familiar with the jo kata.
Thank you, always good to read your posts. As aiki was my first love every time I write about it I always spend too much time on too much detail, which is why I usually spend my time on these forums answering things briefly or making stupid comments and bad jokes, but it's always a pleasure to lurk and read your posts, and increasingly those of our WMA counterparts! I'm really quite jealous - I would jump at the chance to learn some western stuff, especially any extant English/Scottish stuff, given my heritage, but I've never had the chance. And you know, much to my chagrin after 17 years of training, I think I only have one (terrible quality!) photo of me training in anything. I'll try and find some from the net to illustrate what I mean, though on the link Langeschwert posted (here ) the krumphau looks similar to the shomen uke renzoku uchi komi (and uke nagashi) in my aiki suburi (number 5 or 6, I forget offhand). Although if the krumphau is meeting the opponent's blade on the way up (could you WMAers confirm?) it would correspond to kiriage-men hiki maybe. The ukenagashi aims to let the opponent's blade go down, gudie it down your back and then take control of his sword as you bring yours round with an overhead cut (shomen). Ah, OK, so it is slightly different then. I've been taught the kesagiri as the downwards one only and the kiriage follows the same path back up (approx the line of the gi), but I do know of schools (mostly iaido people) that think of the kiriage as only the topmost part of the upward cut, right up until the elbow is almost locked out on the maximum extent of the arm, and one hand comes off the hilt. It makes a more powerful whippy cut, but makes returning back to the centre harder... though when you get that return whip it's really nice and will surprise your opponent if he's complacent. Buggers up your elbows though after a bit and leads to classic 'kendo elbow'. Yes, that corresponds with our use of the t-stance, but we still use a completely neutral shizentai. Well, we were taught to, but most people in that school now too practice everything from the sankaku kamae. I prefer the shizentai as it is more like a standing in the bar stance - complete with tsuka ate with the elbow going up as the drinking the pint move! Well, I'll go back to lurking so as not to hijack and completely Japanify the thread... at least until we've heard more from the Korean and WMA stylists, or I've found some pics to illustrate what I'm babbling about!
There are excellent books on the subject, and some excellent teachers, particularly in the UK. Terry Brown's "English Martial Arts" is a classic modern text on the subject. The Krump moves like a windshield wiper, though angled out from the body and intercepts the cut by beating it down or binding on it. From there you can cut with the other edge or bring a thrust online. It is a downward cut from your shoulder to the opposite side. Ideally, it can hit the hands of the opponent. It works against either descending or rising cuts, and it also breaks the guard called Ochs. So if you have an incoming cut, and you're not sure what's happening, the Krump will do a good job of saving your butt. Best regards, -Mark
Hi guys In keeping with my relating sword principles to hand technique it is said you should never attempt to throw someone who has not been unbalance properly first. Below in answer to a thrust with a knife I have "beaten down" the attacking arm should I deliver a strike with the other hand this is similar to "cutting with the other edge" A failing by many aikidoka is to attempt to catch the attacking hand (not possible) If you are "fencing without the sword" the angle and timing and the direction of the cut in this case from my left shoulder to right hip makes all the difference. regards koyo Langenswert One of my students posted a link on "this is Iwama aikido" thread at my request. In it Chiba shihan demonstrates aiki ken although the opponent is so terrified there is no exchange of technique. Chiba shihan was my first teacher I was uke to him for ten years.
I wouldnt say that duplieren and mutieren are related to winding becuase they are techniques you do by winding. You wind your sword behind his sword to cut to do duplieren, and you wind you sword up and over to thrust to the lower opening for mutieren. Regards Ian
phonetically :love: Duplieren isnt a block. its getting your sword around your opponents and cutting him
chiba sensei demonstrates aiki ken sensei coyle (koyo...the old guy) asked me to post this video clip hope you guys enjoy it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij5dlGmkndE
Thanks Gerry for the clip. I PROMISE TO GIVE YOU A CLIP IN RETURN. :Angel: See you monday. regards Old Bill
