Hi, I posted this in "kung fu" but maybe this is where it should be. "Hi! I am training Shaolin Wushu in my 2nd year. In my training at the club I am not in the "advanced group" yet so I don't get any training on knife-hand strikes. But I have seen it being used and the technique is fairly easy. I would like to strengthen my knife-hand (striking with part of hand between little finger and wrist). Does anyone got some advice on this matter? - Should I practice on a brick? - How often is it safe to train; every day? - How many repetitions each session? 100-200 strikes (minding the velocity and power) ? - I have some "Dit da Jow".. Should I apply it before or after the sessions? Thanks!"
My advice is ...don't. Unless you want to have crippled hands by the time you are in your 30' onwards. Ask Chris Crudelli, amongst others.
Okay. I understand that hardening the knuckles, palm, backside of hand and fingers is likely to cripple the hand but I do think that carefeully executed knife hand training could be safe(r). But I don't know for sure, just read some sites on the internet. http://tkdtutor.com/09Techniques/Hands/Striking/KnifeHand.htm "Striking area is fleshy part of the outer side of the hand between the base of the little finger and the wrist. Keep wrist locked with the hand aligned with the forearm. The point of impact is the fleshy part of the outer hand, which may be used with great force on a hard surface without injury to the hand." I can't ask Chris :/ Anywhere I can read about his bad experience?
i have heard of people using various bags from clothe to pebbles to condition the axe hand,I just find that the hand doesnt feel solid in that position check out this clip [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9BvKvILvxI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9BvKvILvxI[/ame]
you won't get any problems from conditioning a knife hand, since you're not striking with a bone or a joint ¬_¬
I disagree. See the video above and how much the guy's hand and even forearm flexed. So the little bit of muscle at the side of your hand isn't going to provide a great deal of protection against repeated heavy impact. The 5th metacarpal will experience a considerable amount of force from the side. Its pretty clear from the shape of the bone that its going to be much more vulnerable to force from the side rather than force imposed along its length (when punching with the knuckles for example). There's nothing wrong in training your knifehand on a makiwara if that's what you want to do (intelligently, building up over time). Doing it on a brick instead is just going to lead to big problems. Mike
yeah but that was a break of a big ass concrete block, hit full force to break it. conditioning strikes should never be full force
Absolutely forget about the finger area, concentrate on palm heel outer edge. Feel that bone? Train inward horizontal strike, elbow bent 30% and wrist cocked to accentuate striking area. Condition with gentle yet firm thuds on whatever ya want, use common sense build up slowly. Forget about powerfull strikes for some time, make sure you hold your body and posture throughout. I have trained in various martial arts since, well my first grading was with Kin Bushi Ryu in mid 90's and i can tell you theres a couple of versions about. "Ask your instructor"
Do you know of any video of that strike? WIth the palm heel outer edge? Is that the knife hand or something else?' Interesting
Pause the vid at 0;18 sec. (other thread vid) slightly more horizontal hand and get started .. You gotta start out slowly or your wrist will ache all week (even if ya dont feel it at the time) lol, more than the striking area is being conditioned allways remember that. Good luck, Train for longivity. cheers.
If you're training is even going to possibly damage you later on in life then you really need to think of a better way of doing things. You're not training for a fight to the death so you need to put you're training into perspective. A heavy bag is the hardest thing you ever need to hit. Look after yourself as you're around for a long time. Better to have the use of your hands for the long-term.
Just to inject a little note of sceptisism, I think these super slowmo films have caused an unfounded element of worry. If you were to use similar filming techniques for a footballer haeading a ball, anyone chopping wood with an axe, a fat bloke sitting down or Moi looking at his post count you'd see similar ripples of force travelling through the body. That's what your body does for you, that's what it's designed to do, exhert force on the outside world or protect you from it. Breaking solid objects is just a slightly more extreme form of that but needn't be a problem. Train properly and build up slowly, just like you would for any sport and you'll be fine. I grade under a gentleman who held world records for breaking concrete slabs, he suffers no ill effects 20 years later. Mitch
the heavy bag is good for knife hands and ridge hands, i can vouch for that. also, depending on how circular your knife hands are, you might be better off with a bag. regarding the more circular knife hands, since they're not a thrusting strike that needs to be supported by the body, like a karate tsuki is, the makiwara does not provide any extra benefit over a bag, imo (unless it's one of the round makiwaras that are used for circular strikes and kicks). straighter knife hands going in at an angle can benefit from it some more. some karate videos featuring makiwara work and knife hand conditioning [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E9M4jDgZ5Y"]YouTube- Makiwara demonstration[/ame] makiwara clip [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH5YIvrcXWY"]YouTube- Budo Satori[/ame] makiwara at the beginning, knife hands after it [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4utBrDm_ZE"]YouTube- Goju Ryu conditioning methods[/ame] knife hands to standard makiwara at around 1:40, vertical knife hands to rock on top of heavy bag around 4:38
Thanks everybody for useful and wise guidance! I'll invest in a canvas bag or similar and will try to focus on the long-term effects. Thanks!
Oh, one more thing. Generally, when striking with knife-hand, should the hand ideally be in line with the wrist and forearm? I demonstrate in these pictures... 1. Straight line 2. Arched hand I tried arching the hand when doing an inward knife-hand to be able to hit the target higher up (the door frame in the background). When striking with palms down it is easier to keep my hand in line with my wrist/forearm: So, the question (other comments welcome as well) is: Should one always aim to keep the kinfe-hand in line with the wrist and forearm?
At this point whatever is more agreeable for you, you should look at kyokushin vid in other thread and copy it with less power for now. Takes time, cant rush in. Heres a interesting vid i found on you-tube for some other points to consider and a good idea of striking area to use. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whY7QUinG9o"]YouTube- Mighty BAGUAzhang Wooden Man Vol. 1[/ame]
Granted, I perhaps didn't express myself as clearly as I might have done. My point is really that if you're hitting something to condition your striking weapon then the target really should have some give to it, ie. a makiwara or bag. Hitting something that won't give - unless you break it - I think can be very bad for you. Mike
