The more we go back and forth the more I think we actually agree. Perhaps our confusion is only a matter of semantics. How about gun defense for a change of pace?
Ya I think so. Too, its a little funny that a Karate guy (striker/kicker) is trying to get a Jujutsu guy to not break up flow w/ a strike, and a Jujutsu guy (flow/throw) is trying to get a Karate guy to break up flow w/ a strike. Says something about not stereo-typing I think. Okay, pick a situation.
The Karate that my master developed is USA GOJU and it incorporates many diferent influences from several styles. He was one of Peter Urban's first blackbelts, so the lineage is very direct back to Yamaguchi and Miyagi. So we have the formalized structure of Goju coupled with his American fighting and selfdefense focus. For instance we study kubudo and add reallity selfdefense for the sai, nuchaku, escrima, tonfa and bo. He has spent his martial arts career training law enforcement so a lot of our techniques involve control through aiki manouvers. I like the balance that is achieved with the tradition and the modern reality. Check out www.foxdojo.com for some further history. I no that what we focus on has many jujitsu influences as well. Having the GO{hard} and JU {soft} elements lends itself to striking when strikes are needed and flow throw fits when nessessary.
Thanks for the Link. Your right, the more we talk the more we have in common. We have incorperated Kenpo into our Danzan style as Ken Ju Ryu which comes to us via Shihan Russ Rhodes who has both Shotokan & Kajukenbo roots. You can get a link to Shihan Rhodes' school through the Kilohana link that I posted earlier. So, whats your #1 gun "Pattern defense"?
Here we go again, because gundefense follows the same sequence of out of the line of fire, control and dissarm. Here it is entirely important to control the weapon, because if you do not your attacker gains the distance advantage on you and bang your dead. So, assuming that you can reach the gun, because otherwise you just have to run, you use the 2 hand grip and steer the barrel away from your own body. Once that is accomplished the proper aiki joint control is applied. Sorry to go back to the old strike first statement you made, but with a gun attack you can never do that. when you grab the gun controling hand you also need to grip so that you hae control over the gun too. If you grip too low on the wrist for instance, he can turn his wrist and the barell towards you and fire. The scary part is that the gun will probably go off no matter what you do so getting out of the line of fire is imparative. If the gun is held to your heart by a right hander, turn sideways to the left and grab the gun. Then turn to the right 180 degrees lifting his gun and hand over your head and finish with a bar hold. Aiki his wrist to get rid of the gun and do with him what ever you want. We practice different techniques dependent upon where the gun is pointed, but all involve the 3 basic rules previously mentioned
hmmm.... I need a few more details, I think your saying.... Turn left 90deg., stepping back w/ left foot, grabbing gun off-line w/ right hand only & feeding it to left hand. Step forward w/ left foot rotating 180deg. lifting gun above head w/ both hands, pivoting right foot around 45deg. behind. Circle attackers right arm under your left to an armbar submission. Disarm. ....... is that it?
Okay, we have the same pattern only as we step off-line and when your left hand takes hold (thumb under barrel palm & fingers around cylinders/slide) the right elbow shoots back for face or head shot before your attacker brings his left hand into play. The rest is the same as yours. You said before "held on heart", had you said center of chest then we would pivot the other way which takes you away from his free hand & has the added advantage that most can't flex their wrists out as well as in. Also, we sometimes train to put our hands up shoulder high in the typical surrender position for this def. They will expect you to thanks to TV, so your hands are closer to the weapon, & other reasons.
You said before "held on heart", had you said center of chest then we would pivot the other way which takes you away from his free hand & has the added advantage that most can't flex their wrists out as well as in should mess up the wrist control do to some unknown factor Our move for the gun held our right side is to turn to the right while controling the wrist and gun, and then turn 180 deg to the left while doing an aikido type wrist role taking care to rake the barrel of the gun over the attackers face. When doing the wrist role it is important to step back with the left for the leverage. If the gun is on your lower right . Grab the wrist with your right while grabing the barrel with your left taking care not to cross the point of the barrel with yoiur own arm or hand. This grabbing is down quickly so that you pull the gun out of his grip with our left hand while pulling him past you with your right. Now you have the gun and he does'nt. Your left hand grabbing the barrel has your thumb towards him and your palm up and you push the gun away at a 90deg angle . if you push down you will probably shoot yourself.
Thought you might be interested in knife vs knife --------------------------- Martial arts expert kills two raiders Philip Willan in Rome Monday October 13, 2003 The Guardian A Chinese martial arts expert was in custody yesterday after turning the tables on four burglars armed with knives, killing two of them and seriously wounding a third. The 28-year-old man, known as "the doctor" for his practice of acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine, managed to seize one of the two knives carried by his assailants and saw off the entire group with the ferocity of his reaction. Magistrates in the central Italian town of Empoli are now seeking to establish whether his self-defence constituted an excessive use of force. The butchery, worthy of a Quentin Tarantino film, began shortly before midnight on Friday when the four men knocked at the apartment of a Chinese hairdresser in the centre of Empoli. The hairdresser, her assistant and "the doctor", who operated from the same premises, were reportedly overpowered and tied up before the group, all thought to be in their 20s and 30s, ransacked the apartment. Disappointed by their meagre booty, the attackers allegedly threatened to rape the two women unless they told them where the rest of their money was hidden. At this point the doctor managed to free himself, seize a knife from one of the aggressors and deliver a series of lethal stab wounds. Investigators found the body of one man, who had been stabbed in the heart, sprawled on the staircase and another man bleeding to death in the street from a wound to his leg. A third man is recovering in hospital from a punctured lung. The doctor was found crouching in the entrance to the building with cuts to his shoulder, face and hands. Investigators are trying to determine whether he inflicted the injuries while defending himself inside the apartment, or hunted down the burglars after they had fled.
Gojuman: gun held on right side of chest w/ right hand: Pivot 90deg. off-line by stepping back w/ right foot, and left hand to wrist of gun hand taking weapon further off target. Right hand grabs barrel/cylinders from underneath controlling range of fire, left hand back fists attackers’ head/neck and grabs hair or shoulder. Right foot comes up and drives attackers’ knee to the ground w/ left foot adjusting as attacker drops 45deg. away to knees. Left hand goes to throat for submission and disarm. Gun held on right abdominal area w/ right hand. I must not be getting what your saying on this one as it is hard for me to picture what your disc. at first read.. We don’t have a standard pattern for this one and would be tough because as soon as you twitch the gunmen going to raise &/or fold the arm &/or move back &/or fire. Also, you can’t start w/ the closest hand as that would bring it into the field of fire. [Zun] Howdy; I have seen this somewhere else recently. Live by the sword, Die by the sword. I hope the survivors swallow their lesson of their actions and move on & don’t figure on settling the score some day.
I wil try again to discribe the defense against the gun held to your lower right side. As you pivot 90 deg to the right out of the line of fire your left hand grabs the barell of the gun and pushes it away from your body and ultimately toward him. While the left hand does this the right hand has grabbed his right wrist and is pulling hard so that you are pulling him past you on your right. With your right grab pulling on his gun wrist and your left hand controling the gun, you pull him past you while you of course step (really run) past him on the right. He is pulled off balance and you now control the gun. As with all defense against weapons these are very scary situations with the real possibility that the gun will fire. The point being is that these techniques are only performed as a last resort when you realize that the attacker will most likely shoot you even if you comply with his demands.
