It certainly would get a little costly if you were to keep using your treasured shirts but I only suggest doing it once as a tester to give you a taste of reality.
All very interesting responses. What about another angle of knife attack? For instance, UNDER HAND, as in someone trying to stab you in the gut with a upward shove of the knife. What are your thoughts on a good defense for this type of assault?
grab the hand, do all the most unpleasant things you can think of to that hand and arm, then hit him. That any better yoda?
Something that hasn't been discussed is the position of the knife, if you get time to see where the back of the knife is, that can dictate where you move/ & counter. In the first on if it is held sharp edge down, you have to deal w/ jab & slash. Sharp edge up is a little better as turning the hand over to slash your block is a little difficult. In the scond one if sharp edge is up your in deep doo-doo. Anything else and you have some options. As you all know I'm sure that knife attacks can be hidden and exicuted fast, In which case we have to assume sharp edge is in line w/ middle knuckles of fingers. Either way I'm looking for a quick evade & exit.
I'm sure that everyone will agree that the number one technique for any knife attack is to avoid contact and flee. What I'm refering to is what to do if you can not get away and you must physicaly defend yourself. I am interested in what various MA teachers have taught you about this type of altercation. Over head attack (movie script or not) can happen. And let's say that the weapon has a double edge so it won't matter whether or not the blade is up or down. If you would rather describe what you would do to defend any type of knife attack I would like to read about it. Slashing or stabbing?
Ya, I know Gojuman; But the problem with this type off discussion is that there are too many variables. My previose post was only meant to narrow the variables to increase the number of answers that you could get. Also, this is in the Karate section & I'm not fluent in Karate, so I didn't feel right saying to much. But a lot of TV knife fighters will hold a knife horizantly so as to transfer it from hand to hand easier. If they square up w/ edge out you move offline to the inside on the thrust to take the strong slash out of the picture. If they square up w/ edge in then move offline outside on the thrust for the same reason. Now that we have momentarilly moved inside a thrust we can go over attacks/counter that we have been taught. Thats all I was up to, didn't mean to butt in. But now you have moved up to double-edged, so we're back into deep doo-doo.
Shoot them, of course. You could try to jab to the face as the knife descends, letting them know you apreciate the attack, while circling and coverning with the other hand moving inward over the top, then as the jab arm retreats you flex the elbow and jam the attack upward (you really do have to be fast, and drilling this movement is essential). At that point unbalance the opponent with a quick instep kick to the knee area as they apply downward force; note that most of the force disappears (all of this needs to happen in quick succession with flow, otherwise forget it). That is the moment when your lock must be applied; usually an arm press will work well. Hit them first. Then cover and unbalance, then lock. If someone is determined you will most likely be cut at least once. That is why we avoid such situations. I would expect normally to encounter much more difficult attacks though. -Chris J.
First thing to worry about: don't be in the way! Second thing: get control of the knife hand, or at least get out of range of it until an opportunity presents itself. Third thing: hurt them with your bare hands or any weapons to hand more than they hurt you with their knife, and then run as soon as you get the opportunity.
cal_jjj Karate or not. Its all good. The reason I ask is that in my Ryu we spend a great deal of practice dealing with the posibility of fending off a bladed attack. The knife is a very common assault weapon and the technician should be prepared for it. Let me summerize my technique. No matter what the weapon and no matter what the angle of attack is these thre rules apply 1-get out of the line of fire 2-control the weapon 3-dissarm If you do not get out of the line of fire and miss your technique you're in trouble. Controlling the weapon is imperative, because your attacker is totaly focused on the weapon and they will continue to try and use it against you. Dissarming is also imperative. This is accomplished with the use of properly executed wrist locks, joint manipulation, arm breaks, etc. depending upon your position of control. After the weapon is disposed of there are countless follow up techniques to use involving hitting and stomping and twisitng and snaping, etc.... Over all, stay away from the blade. If you have a tool (weapon of any kind) that gives you length of defense look to use that , but if you are naked and must defend yourself remember out of the line of fire control the weapon dissarm
Gojuman; Same exact rules as my Sensei! Another point we might discuss is your attackers foot placement. For a right hand attack, most people are going to take a right foot forward stance. If your attacker has already gained that position on you, then you won't have time to move off line and will have to jamb the attack. If your attacker still has right foot back, then they will most likely step w/ the attack in order to reach you, now you have time to retreat, get off line, block/sweep, etc. Any thoughts on that?
Who is your sensei cal_jjj? Foot placement does not supercede the need to get out of the line of fire and control the weapon. Getting out of the line of fire does not mean that you always step back. Sometimes you step to the side, but if you "jam" you are not out of the line of fire. There may be a circumstance and I can think of one where your attacker has facing a wall with the knife to your back where you have to turn and then "jam" to control the weapon. You have to make sure you turn the right way (ie knife to your back right side you turn left and turn right if the knife is on the right) After you commit to the turn you grab the wrist with the knife and apply a snake arm hold to break his elbow. I like triing to explain these techniques in writing because it really makes you think of doing things correctly
Gojuman; I re-read my last post & don't see where I gave you the impression that it superceded getting yourself off-line or the knife off target. It was just a factor that dictates how much time you have to respond and therefore what counters are avail. Getting out of the way, controlling the weapon, and disarming is the goal. Conditions & options by which that is achieved is more where I was heading. "Getting out of the line of fire does not mean that you always step back." I never said it was, I listed it as one of a few options. "Sometimes you step to the side" Yes, I beleave I touch on that when I posted about which way the edge of the knife is facing. "I like triing to explain these techniques in writing because it really makes you think of doing things correctly." Ya, so does trying to teaching them, I have found.
[Gojuman]"For instance, UNDER HAND, as in someone trying to stab you in the gut with a upward shove of the knife. What are your thoughts on a good defense for this type of assault?" Pattern defense; Right hand jab to gut Pivot on left foot drawing right foot back & left arm wing block. Grab attackers right wrist w/ fight hand and drive left elbow into attackers ribs. Left hand to attackers right wrist to reinforce control Raise attackers arm, step across w/ left foot, turn attackers hand palm up, and break arm over shoulder. Pivot on left foot drawing right foot across behind left foot & throw attacker w/ arm whip. Rotate arm as you step across attacker turning him face down & disarm.
For the underhand defense I insist that you stop the knife holding wrist with a double hand grab. The double hand grab would be closly resembling how one would hold a baseball bat. Trying to grab an attacking wrist with one hand is too weak. Also striking before breaking the arm is an interuption of the technique. I certainy will strike the ribs, but after the elbow is broken . Incidently, the time to dissarm is when you break the elbow. What you describe is turning to the right to lift the attackers arm on to your shoulder to break it.. If you decide to turn to your left while holding his wrist going under his arm you can turn the knife he is holding right into his side and stab him . So no matter which way you turn you have a good option to use.
Gojuman; I don't think your going to break the attackers arm on the initial attack because its a "jab". The attacker is going to thrust and quickly draw the elbow back not leave it out there for you to break. And an under-hand up thrust to the gut is a close quarter attack w/ a bent arm; even harder to break. So, I agree w/ block and stun w/ one hand controlling/protecting; rather than block, get two hands on wrist, and break arm (in this case). Its just going to happen too fast and if he gets elbow back in, your not getting the arm break, standing face to face, you have two hand on the knife hand, and he has one hand free to hand you your hat. But thats the problem w/ overlaying pattern defenses onto real situations. Also, I go along w/ the idea controlling the knife until your attacker is in a submission position (unless he drops it), other wise your liable to get your fingers cut off trying to remove it while your attacker is still able to struggle w/ you.
If you grab an arm holding a knife, all they have to do is twist there are and they have just slit your wrists. RREEEEEEEEMMMEMMMMMBERR THHHHHEEEEEEEE PPPPPPPPEEEEEEEENNNNNNN! RED MARKS=YOUR BLOOD LOTS= DEAD
Not so, Mr. Combatant. The reason is because when you grip the wrist with 2 hands as I described you are not going to just get into a tug of war , but you will very quickly move into a position to snap the elbow, wrist or shoulder. I can see your point if you grab too high on the knife barer's forearm, but grabbing the wrist will not let the knife wiggle to cut your wrists.
Gojuman; I've tried these moves while sparring & I can't see breaking a retracting arm on a low attack line w/ the initial evasion. Are you strong enough to break anyones wrist like breaking a pencil though? Pattern defense; Right hand knife thrust to gut Pivot on left foot drawing right foot back & left arm wing block hook attackers right wrist w/ right hand and break arm w/ wing block. Left hand hooks inside of attackers elbow & right hand folds attackers right arm driving knife to attackers chest/face. Left hand reinforces control while rotating hips to a left forward stance. Right leg moves up for sweep. Same submission & disarm.
No I am not going to break the wrist in this manner. When attacked with an under arm assault I catch the wrist and then turn clockwise keeping hold of thee wrist. when I turn under his arm his palm with the knife in his hand will turn uwards and when I have placed his elbow on my right shoulder and pull down his elbow will snapp rather easily. I'm sure you would agree if you saw the technique that it is a good one.
