I said I liked the video, what more do you want? Are you saying you can handle a knife like say Dan Inosanto or better? What I did not see in the video was you dueling Chris, waiting or creating an opening before striking. I did not see the twirling of the blade to cut on the wrists on the way out. I did not see short powerful multiple cuts and thrusts. I did not see you kick or punch or shoot in for a takedown before stabbing. I did not see you fake and move out of the way, and attack an opening. I did not see you target Chris' wrists and arms, or grab him, elbow him and then cut him up. There's lots of things I did not see. How can I say you showed good knife skills the likes of a skilled or experience knife fighter, when it is not in the video. I did not say you were not skilled, I only implied that the attacks in the video were limited. Nothing more to be implied, nothing insulting intended. Edit: No I did not say that FMA only know how to use a knife, but the principles that they use are basic principles that apply to all weapons combat across most all martial arts. As long as those principles are learned it can be any martial art training with a knife. Edit: As for a prison stabbing, two things I look for in a "typical" attack. (1) initial suprise attack such as grabbing the target so they cannot defend themselves, and (2) repeated powerful short stabs either like uppercuts to the chest or downward hammerfists from the side and above in a mostly mechanical fashion with little regard to personal safety so even if counter-attacked back the attacker will continue to stab repeatedly.
Thanks. Strange thing about video. When we demo'ed those techniques it was adhoc (no practice) and I really thought the attacker was trying to cut me, in fact not shown in the video I did get "cut/stabbed" a few times... conveniently edited out However, after seeing the video I made, I have to admit that the attacker was compliant looking. I can only say he really was resisting, just not up to par to a real fight. Live and learn. Overall I would have to say he was compliant if having to evaluate him.
Here is a sad article much along the lines of middleway's (Chris') posting about multiple attackers. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=387857&in_page_id=1770 The referred video footage is of a knife attack that led to the death of the stabbing victim. This is not for kids. I am posting this because after re-reading my posts in this thread and the response from Sam, I felt that Sam deserved a more specific critique of what I was looking for in the video that he and Chris made. So in the video footage of the stabbing, there is demonstrated two concepts that tend to come naturally and one point. The first is to stay behind the weapon keeping the blade between yourself and the target. The second is the use of grabbing or striking of the arms to clear the way for the blade. The last point is that the cuts and stabs can be done with very little range of motion as a sharp blade can cut to the bone with little effort. So Sam, what I was looking for in yours and Chris' video was simply more examples of you staying behind the weapon and using your free limbs to grab or strike Chris' hands and arms away to clear the path to the target. I was also looking for very short but powerful repeated stabs and cuts almost like a machine piston. This to me would represent the minimum attack level on Chris to challenge him so that he can better show his stuff. The last piece I was looking for may not have been in the context of the video, but I was looking for a determined attacker that did not give up. Sam you did well and after looking at your video now some dozens of times to try to be fair, I do see some good intention and attacks on your part so I appologize if I came off too negatively.
Yea Dan Inosanto's demands were a little high apparantly, wheras Sam was happy to do it for a bag of crisps.
all the arguing aside. It was nice to see some Bagua used to deal with someone who had a weapon. Cheers for the video. be well, Dale
Thanks for the comments. Honestly i fail to see any of the above in your clips. This is not to be argumentative. In your video's there is little to no intent to cut or stab and little to no change of line or attempt to change line after the first motion. There is also no checking, attacking with the other limbs etc etc. when the guy goes down he just lies there as you do various methods (locks) on him. This is honestly how to get yourself stabbed by his friends or knocked out .. assuming that you manage to get him to this position ... I have trained knife defences almost identical to the ones you have posted and shown. Honestly compared to the freework at the end of my clip it is very contrived and really unrealistic. Get some big pads on and try to take each other out .. see if anything like this really happens. I got cut in traininging knife. even in the demo clip i posted i would have been cut slightly on the side. This is because sam was constantly agressively coming forward, was constantly changing the lines of his attacks, checking my defences and was constantly trying to slice me to bits. Notice how messy and rough it all looks ... this in my experience is a sure fire sign that the guy attacking is trying his *** off to kill you! [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWQfgwuOAxo"]Realistic Knife Defence Training - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY_6nQT89vQ"]Realistic Knife Scenarios - YouTube[/ame] See above for knife defence and attack training. Note the similarity to the free work I show. here is some contrived .. martial arty defences .. which wont work under the pressure seen above. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9EBDSYqDh0[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWfVquG2bSQ"]ericka's creative knife self defense - YouTube[/ame] Interesting how 'martial artists' view knife defence ... and how people that have faced it IN REAL LIFE view knife defence. EDIT: appologies if some of this comes off as argumentative. I did not fully read your posts and you seem to come across as a good guy. Thanks for the critique and happy training. regards Chris
I'm glad you aren't trying to argue because I was very clear in my posting that my videos were only demonstrations of techniques, not to be viewed as application or as proof of effectiveness. Also, if you missed the checking that is because of the video angle, I'm checking both the weapon and the elbow. I'm glad you've trained knife defenses almost identical to the ones I showed in my video. Too bad you did not find any use in the principles behind them. They aren't new techniques but I've developed them working with trained knife fighters. Mostly from one Police officer who was the instructor for SWAT whose job was to train his people to defend against weapons on duty. One criteria was these techniques when turned to application had to be usable against someone much stronger and larger, so I worked to get these things to work on someone twice my size. Missing from the basic technique shown in my video is obviously the resistance and determined attack. There was no need for me to strike or do much more than I did because of the attacker. Here is the jest of it. Video can be used to demonstrate how to do a technique, like an instructional video. Video can also be used to show real application of technique. All of the videos both the two you liked and the two you felt were contrived can be viewed in both ways. As an instructional video, the two you liked show the realism of how hard it is to defend against a determined attacker with weapon. There isn't much show of technique however. The two videos you called contrived show some techniques but aren't very realistic. I will say one thing, from the APPLICATION point of view, all the videos were valid in some sense because the defender responded to the attacker. So for application, it really depends on the situation and the attacker(s). The bigger, the stronger, the more skilled the attacker, the more the application is going to be tested in the video. Of the four videos the one with the Tae Kwon do (I think that was what it was), the second "contrived" video according to you was my favorite. The girl got a hold of the weapon arm and then kicked the attacker. Was the attacker attacking realistically, well not really, but her response was good... grab hold of the weapon arm... don't ever let go, and kick the poop out of the attacker. I don't think that response is all that contrived, IMHO. No problems, just helps to keep me on my toes. Did I mention that I really liked your video.
i see what your getting at, but the clips are specific. He hasn’t got a guard to destroy so i don't. Also if i started pulling some mad bagua knifee spoony it wouldn't represent people’s general experience of real knife defence. Also, at the end the attacks are surprise and the weapon hidden. At these points you can see I do turn the blade and go for it. The thing is if I did very good knife, not that I can , but the only thing Chris could do in that situation to demonstrate the ideas would be to really hit me to stop me. I have an advantage in that situation because I know Chris, I have a knife and I know Chris will only go so much. So without having myself hurt, i think i react proportionally well to the things shown. good training sam
We are on the same agreement here. :love: I wanted to say what you said from the beginning but I could not put it in words. I don't feel any video is going to test practical application unless both the attacker and defender are really trying to hit each other. Everything else is just for training purposes, IMHO. I also noted to myself that no one wore face/eye protection, I was looking for some stab low and then slice his throat action (edit: like the one time you did about the 3/4 into the video), but without face protection that is not really safe to train full speed. ------- One advantage in that I am a Bruce Lee sized guy is that it isn't all that hard to find guys much larger than me. Pad them up and given control for safety, I can pound on them pretty hard. I find it extremely valuable to test out things in this manner. Then I can pass on that knowledge to others and learn more myself in the exchange. Yeah, good point, but I wasn't intending on anything that skilled, I only meant when he blocked or touched your weapon arm, you could try to use your free hand to grab or push his arm away. Or strike him with your free hand (taking his mind off of your weapon for a moment) allowing you to repeated cut and stab him.
Hey Chris and Sam, This position caught my interest from your video. Any pointers about this position and following technique? My comments on this position is that it is close to a common entry position I've seen advocated.
here sam grabs me and tries to stab me with the knife. I then retreat my body and check his knife arm. saving my life in that instant. Also a head butt would be there but i didnt actually hit him for obvious reasons .. although i do mention this in the tape. Then my free arm swings around the back of his head, he is still holding my neck with his other hand and i follow his change of direction and twist his structure taking him down. these first parts of the clip are instructional parts from a film i am doing with my teacher so its not so 'freeform' as the later parts where i dont know whats coming. this section of the film was about being grabbed and repeatably stabbed. And there are some drills on there for training defence against this ... although this isnt one of them. cheers Chris
Thanks for the reply Chris. Anything in the video you are making about someone grabbing one of the defender's arms in an under or over arm wrap?
Oh, sorry, more standard terminology would be the underhook and overhook. underhook = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underhook overhook = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhook I was referring to where the attacker has an under or over hook around the ARM of the defender, and asking if there is anything in your upcoming video about that. I am looking forward to your video, btw. Will it be available to everyone who wants to buy one?
underhook isnt mentioned but overhook is. The discussion on grabbs etc is on working against the first motion, regardless of whether its a grab, a punch or a slice with another knife. the DVD will be available to everyone once its complete. The first section is my teacher Alex Kozma going over basic principles of move, check and hit. The second section is me going over some different drills with limited mobility, some awareness training drills, 'Check follow' drills and free work. with explanations. i will let everyone know when its ready Cheers chris
Sounds good Chris, look forward to it. Thanks for posting the clip, needless to say I liked it very much. Good stuff, great movement & application, nice work fellas!!
cheers Zee Dee ... by the way did you see master He yesterday for the Tai Chi seminar .. how was it? I went on the saturday ... really interesting information about what the centre is that you expand from. Cheers Chris
