just as an aside here is an OLD clip of a way to disarm without tying up your hands with grabbing. http://www.ma-design.biz/chris_shockknife.wmv I think with this file you will have to right click ... save target as ... then view it from your machine .... i think. May work for some. cheers Chris
true, and as i say, i'm not taking anything away from the clip. However, to me something as potentially lethal as unarmed response to a knife means i want to stack the odds in my favour as much as i can, and i personally wouldn't rely on any first response strike, or body position, to keep me safe... it would be nice if they did, but for me i want to know where that knife is at all times, if it is in the hand of the other guy, then i want some contact which will let me know if he/she is about to move it, even if i am engaged in something else, like moving round the back etc. Alex (is it?) moved really effectively, that use of the initial turn to both deflect the blade and (more importantly) angle his body away is nicely done. And the fluidity of his movement means that even though he did 'free the knife' for a short time, there was little that could be done before you (?) were wrapped up. good point. i would never say the focus should be on the weapon, BUT, you're awareness should never leave the weapon and this is not the same thing at all. You must stay aware of where the weapon is in relation to you. If not, how can you know that the movement you make next will not take you into it? In the clip, i have no doubt Alex knew exactly where the weapon was, which makes it a good example. It is handy to remember that there is no perfect response. Just ones that get you through the situation, and ones that don't. I agree again with this.. i'm never comfortable if the knife flies out of the hand in response to a snapping wrist manipulation or a well timed strike to the back of the hand. equally, disarming someone opens its own cans of worms... now you have the knife, are you going to cut them, or try and restrain them without stabbing/cutting them? if you don't want to cut them, you now have a knife in your hand to manage as well as the person you have just taken it from. ideally, control them in such a way as they keep hold of the knife, but it isn't a danger to you. which takes me back to my original idea, of bringing the knife to the body of the attacker during the movement preceding the takedown. Keeps things tighter. edit: reading that back, one point; when talking about leaving them with the knife, i am talking about the sceanrio of disarming them before immobilising them. Clearly, once you have them under control, you want the knife
The video shows a nice use of body mechanics to disarm the attacker. It is interesting that most knife defenses IME appear to use the same body mechanics depending on if inside or outside the weapon, attack is on high or low line, angle of the attack, and distance. As far as these body mechanics, of the few knife counters I've found to work a larger percentage of times when transferring the technique from a static/demo environment to a more dynamic/realistic environment, two of them are demonstrated in the two video links provided in this thread. These would be... 1. Checking the weapon and controlling underneath/behind the elbow of the attacker. This was demonstrated in the first video. It is important to have control of the elbow and the shoulder of the attacker with this entry. I do not work to the rear gate as in the video as a priority, but rather have a few other things I prefer to do from that position, but that is my experience and preferences. 2. Checking the weapon and controlling the forearm and elbow of the attacker and applying force to the back of the attacker's hand. The mechanics is shown in the last (second video above). I do not train it in the way the video shows, but again, that is my experience and preference. This position can happen on a failed attempt to use the first method because the first method requires the ability to turn the attacker and/or step in deep shoulder to shoulder. Not shown in any video is checking the weapon and losing control of the weapon because something doesn't work out. The first video touches on things to do when losing control of the weapon, such things as keeping the back of the forearms (bone) to the blade, trying to stay behind the elbow and shoulder of the attacker (pinning or trapping their delivery system if you can), guarding the high and low line (protecting vitals), striking them and doing your damage, moving to be a hard to hit target, and then either getting out of there or working a technique that will gain control of the attacker's delivery system. The last part is hard to show in a demo and hard to train without safety equipment. I've found that a more controlled exercise rather than all out full speed anything goes, is that some valuable training can be done by going about half speed but allow the attacker to do anything, including grab and hit with other weapons besides just the knife. Then work the fundamentals into technique. Also, one of my favorites "eye-opening exercises" is just have the attacker charge at you trying to grab you with their other hand and stab you a dozen times all at once. Especially trying this with attackers almost twice my size. Quickly the flaws of static techniques come out and going back to just basic fundamentals and re-engineering the techniques into application, hopefully practical application becomes quite an eye opener.
Interesting posts all round guys.... So if it ends up in the body of the attacker - as in the clip - who falls on it, who cares? I think controlling the wrist in the situation shown would do two things: 1. Change the situation so radically that it would be a completely different technique 2. Weaken the defence so radically that it wouldn't work. The movement and momentum that Alex is using is the largest part of the technique in this instance imho... Sure, if the guy was a robot with none of the normal reactions associated with human beings lol. The head grab and twist effectively 'blinds' the knife-man to any possibilities. Sure, he might flail wildly and cut you, but it's unlikley at that speed imo... Sure, no probs with that. Having learnt several different approaches to knife work, I would have to say that when you get into the realms of wrist-locks, grabs, disarms et al it really becomes a different MA technique, so the discussion reverts to pure theory at this point... Highly unlikely, as Chris says above. You'd have to be cut inside the arm and then vertically up the arm rather than across it. I used to work with a guy 'humourously' (??) known to the police as 'slasher' because he regularly cut his own arms down to bone level. As far as I know he's still alive and well (and probably still cutting himself to get attention ) I think you've been brainwashed into one approach tbh Go and train with someone like Alex, Chris or RobP that actually knows what they're talking about. There are more dangers in going after the weapon ime... 'Ensuing battle' is an interesting phrase and inciteful into the way you've trained friend. If you go after the assailant from the off and let him stay attached to his toy, there will be no 'ensuing battle' in most cases imo Re: gun defence - different methods, main thing is to get off the firing line. In some ways guns are easier than knives as long as the barrel is not facing you it can't do anything much. So the priority is to move fast and turn the weapon/yourself to clear the barrel end (line of fire) A knife can cut in different directions and ways as well as stab forwards - different beast imho I'd rather defend against a gun close up than a knife tbh (I'd rather avoid both of em tho lol ) I think there is no 'one' way - but generally I disagree tbh I think the attacker is already fixated on his toy - it's his power. It becomes useful to exploit that fixation by going after the attacker - otherwise you're 'fighting/struggling' for the weapon in a strength/technique battle (not good IMA practice imho) The weapon remains dangerous anyway, until it is removed from use by either disabling/knocking out/pinning the attacker or freeing the weapon from his hands one way or another. Speaking of 'bad habits' my worst one is that all the knife work I learnt from ninjutsu involved using the knife on the attacker either with his own hand or yours after you've taken it from him... lol I've found it really hard to stop doing this when I train lol So if I ever get in a real situation I'll probably go to jail for GBH or manslaughter after lol :cry: Oh well...
Let's be careful about using "Brain wash" shall we, please. Everyone with a teacher has a certain slant to their technique. With all due respect to Chris and partner and their resume of knife defenses, my technique did not come to me in a dream. It was given to me by the Lady of the Lake as she held Escalaber on high...oh wait, wrong story. Seriously though. I can't believe that ya'll are not seeing the value of a proper two handed defense. Furthermore, let me know when you guys are fighting in the Ultimate Fighter arena so that I can bet some big bucks on your ability to end the fight in one strike. You are all dreaming if you think that you can hold a knife attacking arm off with one hand while simutaniously knocking your attacker out with the other hand. Every one is cerntainly welcome to their opinions. From the beginning I have agreed that there are many techniques that may indeed work. The video technique could be very viable. Is it the best aproach? Not in my opinion, nor is it the opinion of martial artists with many years of training and practical experience with whom I train. I am not even answering the hypothetical situation regarding the knife attacker's budy who retrieves the knife. Come on. Let's stay on topic here.
You're not seeing what I'm seeing. It doesn't look quite like he is using one "hand" to fend off the attacker when he strikes to the floating ribs with the wrist strike. It looks more to me that he has the attacker's elbow braced against his body. This would be the use of the "third hand" or basically using your body as an extra hand.
It's all about pressure and making the other guy 'play his hand' - you don't need to 'hold his hand' to do that, you just need to "keep moving in front of the Tiger" as my old teacher always said... Thanks for illustrating that so well in this context, Gojuman I rest my case :Angel:
It's not a case of 'knocking out' .. it is a case of doing a few things at once if you get the chance ie. you are shown the weapon. hit and or t/d as you check to side position,it can buy you the time to better your control.. like the one you seek.. taking a good hit would take some initiative / momentum away from the attacker. If i was standing in front 'id pretty much do what chris did in second clip smash his guard as hard as i could .. getting to the outside to control the knife arm if he still has it all the better . would still do my best to hit/takedown whilst doing so. sorry only do KFC
I'm sorry, but this third hand of yours is too likely to be cut. Maybe I'm too old and slow to fathum this technique realisticly, but I know my limitations. I would never be able to get around someone faster than I could control their attacking limb.f What I am seeing is a straight thrust attack. The defender parrys with his left hand strikes his adversary while he moves behind him ending with a grabbing head and chin take down and ending with an elbow break (not the most effective hand position) over his own knee. Thus taking the knife and ending the fight. I would do a similar parry but being more careful as to not put my right arm in the line of fire. As I parry, I entrap his thrusting arm in what I refer to as a snake arm. I am now in a position to dislocate his elbow. Nothing fancy. No third hands or mumbo jumbo. Once again. Hitting the floating rib? Great target, but awfully risky to think that this type of strike would stop an attacker. After I have broken the elbow and his knife is out of the picture I can perform any number of efective thows or take down techniques and expose his floating rib at that point to strike with a heel stomp. (Yes. This is assuming that his buddies are busy across the street waiting for a bus and not comming to his rescue)
This is what is called splitting your chi. Focus on the most important task first. If he still has the knife while being hit or taken down you are alowing him to fight back. But, you have bare hands and he has a knife. I'm not saying that in my technique he won't fight back, but I will have control the thing that can poke holes in me. I will concede that while I have him locked in my snake arm that I may want or need to stomp his foot or something like that to break his chi, but I'm not letting go of that right arm of his with the knife still in his hand.
There's nothing wrong with going for his knife arm if you have the 'right' position. and you can defend .. there are various ways to go for that.. however way you cut it, it's a pot luck scenario .. what's with this 'chi' business anyway?
Suffice to say, we aren't seeing the same things. You may be looking at individual pieces, I feel I'm more looking at the entire flow of combat of how the pieces work together. For instance, he does not parry with his left hand but with the back of his left forearm, this allows a larger surface for shielding and he raises that behind the elbow of the attacker which does three things, 1. helps to prevent the back stroke of the blade (e.g. attacker pulls his arm back cutting his way out), temporarily attacks the balance of the attacker, and 3. opens up the ribs as a viable target. The striking to the ribs that follows is not a single technique to knock out the attacker but is part of a pattern to deaden the arm of the attacker (e.g. make the arm weaker). The rest of the clip I don't agree would be the way I would train it, I mean if you are going to a pattern to deaden the arm, with arm extended and in grasp, why let go of the arm, why not go for the break or the take down immediately from that position? But it isn't me doing it is it so it is the choice of the person what they end up doing. Well in reference to the this apparently mystical beast I call "the third hand" which is basically using other parts of your body to leverage in application besides just the hands... if I had to grab and control opponents ONLY using my hands, I probably would not have made it passed white belt. But this is just my opinion. I already addressed the purpose of the strike. It isn't to one punch out the attacker.
Prevent back stroke? Deaden the arm? What happened to realism? I suppose that there are some masters out there who have jumped off the Kung fu movie screen who could pull that off, but come on.
Goju, I think i answered all of your questions / comments. It would be interesting to see one of your knife defence clips or work ... care to post any. Alternatively you are welcome to come see me to go through my thoughts and yours if your ever in the UK. Until then happy training. regards chris
Fair enough. One of these days I will post a video, but it's not something we do. I'm sorry that my verbalizasion is not clear enough. We practice attacks from all angles and for each angle we have a Number one technique. We practice alternatives to the number one technique as well to address concerns such as what about the attackers friends or if i pull the knife or gun in this direction will I be putting someone standing near me at risk. I have done my best to describe the number one defense for the straight thrust. Under hand attack is a double grab like you would grab a cricket bat I suppose. Once you make the grab you turn 180 degress under and clockwise your attackers arm and break his elbow over your right shoulder with your back to him. If he slashes your left side you make the double catch and turn into a bar hold. If he back slashes you catch in the same manner but wrist roll him down whilst controlling the knife hand. It is an Aikido throw really. ( my USA GOJU encorporates a great deal of aiki jistsu. If the attack comes like the movie "Pshycho" you catch over head and turn into the bar hold. From the bar hold it is possible to break the wrist and to drive him face first into the floor. We practice with the knife held pointed at the throat, from behind, to the back and every other permutation that you can think of. For each number one and for each alternative to the number one the three rules must always apply. Out of the line. Control . Dissarm. A great deal of time and practice goes into these defenses. In addition to practicing with empty hand we practice defense against knife with escrima, sai, nunchaku and tonfa. Regardless of the defensive mechanism the three rules apply. If we have a weapon the number one is to use it of coarse. But there are always alternatives. I would love to visist a MAP dojo abroad some day. Florida is also a nice place to visit and that is where I am. Please come visit and train.
Well this is old but a bit of my spin on knife defense: http://martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=545229&#post545229 I want to stress the importance of having control of the elbow. We call that technique "breaking the sword" and is part of our belt requirements. As a variation against someone a lot shorter or taller than me, we also practice that with the break across the chest and with the forearm. Now I know how I do the technique to control the elbow in various situations, but what method do you use to control the attacker's elbow during the application of the technique? By the way, as taught (basic text book), I've never got this technique to work against a trained knife fighter, especially one that was nearly twice my size and considerably stronger than me. They simply find a way to cut their way out and back in. If my hands are low the knife finds its way to cut my throat, if my hands are high, the knife finds its way to cut me on the inside of the legs and lower extremities. I use a variation of it, however, that has worked somewhat more reliably against larger trained FMA knife fighters. The basic difficulty with the technique is that if I keep my chest to the knife of the attacker, without making that catch perfectly and the turn, I am in what a fellow martial artist described to me as a deadman's position. Just my spin on things.
don't forget, when we watch and critique clips like this we have the luxury to really see the movements that both people make in great detail. this can lead us to make the mistake of looking for the 'perfect movement for everyone', but such a thing is out in the forest living next door to the unicorns. for example gojuman makes this important observation; this illustrates that each of us will respond differently, according to our own strengths and limitations in the clip, some of the most important principles are clearly illustrated... 1. make sure the initial attack from the knife fails 2. move to a place where the knife can't be used against you 3. take full control of both the assailant and the blade the clip really does illustrate how smooth, relaxed, flowing movement can 'wash over' the attacker before they know what has happened, for me it is developing the ability to move and respond with that fluidity which is the most important. get the movement right and the technique will take care of itself (presuming you've practiced lots and lots and lots ) As we are all aware, if that were a clip of a 'real' knife attack/response we would all be saying, "good work, you got home alive" but it isn't, its an illustration, and as middleway says in post 1, it illustrates moving around the back of the opponent and dropping them. and (IMHO) it does this very well. interesting observation, and i agree, retaining control of the wrist may lead to a different technique, but? the point i am making is that no single technique will save you. What will keep you safe is the essence of all the training/experience you have aquired. Getting lost in trying to apply a learned technique in a text book manner means you sacrifice adapatability to the changes occuring in the moment. It can lead to trying to force a bad position when 'changing technique' would be more appropriate. Also, I can see a way of bringing the arm to the body and still using the same takedown; at the point the knife hand is released, the arm comes under the shoulder and controls the torso as the balance is controlled by turning the head with the other arm. It would be possible to push the knife hand down, keeping it straight, then trapping the arm at the elbow as the defender then reaches over the arm (instead of under it) to control the torso in a similar manner. But now you've got me hunting the perfect technique..
