Does anyone have any thoughts on dealing with a "Jailhouse shank" style of attack with a knife. The attacker holds the knife in the rear hand while he bullies you with the lead hand and proceeds to shank you multiple times. These days that has been the theme in our training and we have been training it both fast and slow inorder to see what is Actually possible against such an attack. So far what we have come up with is the proper usage of langkah helps greatly to be able to actually get away from the knife and not get cut or not get cut as much and also allows you to be able to defend yourself. But the honest truth and brutality of such an attack coming at you 100% is worth researching and worth figuring out honestly whats possible. Please share your thoughts on how to deal with this type of attack. What didn't work at all was trying to stay nose to nose to the attacker, trying to grab the dagger from the front, trying to disarm the dagger from the front, trying to do Palasut from FMA. It seemed all that did work was body angulation, Footwork using angles (langkah), and once off the line of attack countering back with some type of elbowing, arm & Hand destructions, Potongs to the face and arms etc, Bisets, and also arm drags. The Bullfighter strategy worked best over being the bull mentality. Peace Silat Yogi
This is my take, and for what it's worth I trained in the Echanis method for knife fighting while in Recon. I modified my own style somewhat and used a kukri for my main weapon in my principle hand (which you don't manipulate as per E method ... but shears through bone ) and a 6" Model 1 Randall fighting knife (surgical steal, mycarta pistol grip tang thu handle etc) in my left hand ... for a two knife approach. Alternatively I used a 4 " blade Morseth boot knife ... if surprise was the idea. (It's difficult to catch someone unawares when you're carrying a bloody great big kukri!) ... and no, I haven't actually killed anyone with a knife (thank goodness). When defending against any knife attack, try to keep the cuts to your fore-arms ... it's bad juju to get cut anywhere in the torso area or face, and a knife wielder who knows his stuff will usually aim for arterial areas, such as the carotid, or the artery on the inside of the thigh (what's it called?), or under the armpit. Kidney,spleen etc are also vulnerable areas. Also, a surprise attack is virtually impossible to defend against. How do you defend agaisnt something you're not aware of? I feel pretty confident that if I wanted to take someone out and they weren't aware of my intention up to the point I'm within strike range, there's not a lot they can do to defend ... well, that was twenty six or so years ago now. Any attack with a shank would tend to follow an ambush model IMO. One has to be pretty stupid, very confident or too much testosterone, to telegraph an intention to attack with a knife. As I remember it, at the time I realised that everything I had seen pertaining to conventional wisdom (what was taught at martial arts schools etc) against knife attacks seemed wholly inadequate in the real world. One area which I think is lacking in conventinal MA type schools is the lack of reality in approaching real life violent situatioins. While it does give you a degree of preparedness, there is IMO a gulf of reality between perguruan/dojo and real conflict. Sooo ... (pardon the ramble down memory lane), if I had time to respond against a shank attack what would I do? 1/ I would endeavour to keep the knife in view 2/ I would wrap anything I could around my arms (if I had the time and the spare clothing) 3/ I would watch the elbows ... they telegraph the moves and easier to control 4/ I would aim to dodge and strike debilitating areas to ensure a fast knockdown 5/ ... and then I would change my underpants at the earliest opportunity ... Regards
Fat as self-defense I am a little familiar with some of the things you guys have said. In Filipino martial arts, I think the term "Palasut" should have been "Palusot", meaning "to make it pass through/over/away" in reference to getting the blade into another (safer) angle. Training frontal disarms is done simply because in certain situations when you are ambushed and trapped in place, you have to work from that position. The Echanis method is based on the Korean martial art of Hwarangdo. Micheal Echanis was taught specialized knife-fighting techniques from Hwarangdo's founder, Dr. Joo Bang Lee. While certain aspects of Hwarangdo differ from FMA, I find the principles of HRD sound and effective. There is another good source for dealing with knife attacks. I learned this from watching Discovery Channel feature on the ancient Roman gladiators. I was surprised to know that towards nearing the date of the games, instead of trimming down, the gladiators put on fat. It turns out that an extra layer of fat helps as added protection against slashes and stabs. I remember visiting a friend who was stabbed during a street fight. The other guys were in critical condition, but he survived not because he was the strongest but because he was very fat. Maybe some of you want to experiment being fat as a defense against the knife.
That's interesting about the gladiators of ancient Rome RedBagani. It is true though, we were aware too of the insulative properties of subcutaneous fatty tissue. Fat helps to minimise anything that penetrates vital areas ... even against rounds. I'm sure that it would even minimise internal bruising .... hmmm, maybe I should eat more . One can be fat and fit, one does not necessarily preclude the other. However, there is the drawback that extra weight puts added stress to the body mechanism in general. Like everything else in life, we need to understand the art of trade-offs!
In Indonesian street fights and school wars there are often poisoned blades. The proper way to poison blades is with natural arsenic crystal diluted in lime juice called warangan. The poor man poisons his blade with all sorts of rotting venomous creatures like cobra heads, scorpions, venom frogs and human faeces. The blade is left in the rotting mess till the mess liquifies and makes a film on the blade: this process is called cacam. A friend of mine got stabbed when he passed a 'kampung' which was in war with another 'kampung' in Jakarta. Just one small badik wound in his thigh began to swell and go black. The hospital refused to treat him for arsenic poisoning and he died in three-four hours. Traditional Jawa silat from East, Centre, and West of the island all train in wirid chanting the Names of Allah thousands of times all through the night and fast and learn invulrnability called ilmu kebal. In fact as far as I know most of the Indonesian cultures have ilmu kebal. If you don't have ilmu kebal then your advise sounds good Mas Sekaralas but a bit scary to use against a poisoned blade. With ilmu kebal you can invite the attacking bully to choose where (s)he wants to stab or slash and let them stab till they tire or freak out. Warm salaams to all, KC.
"the artery on the inside of the thigh (what's it called?)" Answer: Femoral. If cut, unconciousness in 15 to 30 seconds. Worse, most folks aren't used to defending their legs against fist - so the slice comes as a surprise. Often easier to get than a slash at head level where all the defenses are. I got a blood clot in mine Glad to be alive I am... The invulnerability thing didn't work so well during the boxer rebellion. There are accounts of Indonesians attacking Dutch when they thought they were invulnerable to the bullets with practices like these. Didn't turn out so well. Poisoned blades are a B****tch. Give a five year old a colored marker and let them attack you. Anywhere you are marked you are dead. My instructor used to carry around an anecdote... It was a nice little concoction to throw in the eyes of the knife attacker before he got you. (of course, you have to see it coming). He said that some of the guys would sharpen and soak a few of their finger nails in poisons like Kiai mentioned above. Of course in Viet Nam, the North would cover their bullets in feces... Now we know why 50 calibre sniper rifles were invented.
What's that artery that goes along the side of the neck? Answer: Carotid. Aah...if severed, death in less than 30 seconds. I know they covered punji stakes with faeces, but bullets? Was it worth the extra effort put into cleaning the barrel of their rifles? Besides, I thought dirty bullets affected accuracy. It also gave an early warning to the enemy; the sniper could be smelled before the shot was fired.
Salaams to All, My brother currently works in a maximum security prison in New York. Since I began to study martial arts seriously, he has given me some info on the original question, which I believe referred specifically to a "jailhouse" type of shank attack, which I will share here: 1) A proper jailhouse shanking will most likely occur from behind, or when you are in a prone position, or when you are otherwise distracted, so you probably won't have any knowledge of the impending attack. That kind of cancels out most defensive strategies right off the bat 2) Prisoners sometimes craft makeshift body-armour from phone books (duct taped to their stomach/kidney areas) or will sew thick paperback books into the lining of a field jacket. 3) Prisoners have their own biological weapons method as well. Some will keep a cup of urine, feces, vomit, etc. which they allow to ferment over time. They will throw this onto the face of their victim (even guards, if they are late with a meal) This is known as "Dressing Someone Down" in prison speak. Yuck
Great post! I have talked to a lot of people from different martial backgrounds and also my training group about this type of attack and they say they have a "method" to counter it but when we test it 9 out 10 times they usualy feel the blade cut them. Most guys i know don;t even train it they say the knife in the rear hand is B.S. way to fight. But it's what you see in the streets and in prison. There was a show last night on TV (discovery or learning channel i can't remember) about correction officers and they showed video of a few getting stabbed in the neck and a guy getting "Shanked" 52 times, officers fighting and controlling inmates and also "Dressing someone down" where the inmates would put blood and feces into drinks and officers's coffees Truly brutal & crazy stuff. I believe in energy, mantra, the Divine etc.....But when it comes to defending this type of stuff its going to take everything in your arsenal you can't just rely on a 3 week juice fast and chanting OM all day long. may the force be with you Silatyogi
Thanks for helping me remember the word SilatYogi . On the subject of spirituality, IMO spirituality is part of all of us ... even if we profess not to be (spiritual). Personally I don't believe in some humanised divine entity which participates to help one side of humanity against another, but that's just me. I believe that divinity is all around, but is doesn't involve at a level to make us kebal etc. Humans are free agents in a way ... we can be genuine rotters, or try to be decent. I think every person knows in the core of their being when they're being a ****ty-stinker. Sometimes (great and wonderous fighter that I am) I have to take a reality check, when I realise that with all the training in the world, I'm not going to win every fight. Nor is anyone else. I believe the best tactic is not to get involved in one, but if that's not possible then we do the best we can. Our training is aimed to maximise our ability to do "the best we can". Try to survive, so one can tell great war stories to the grandkids . Most dangerous situations don't just "happen". There is always a sequence of events, and it's never clearcut. On the subject of bullets, a bullet/round is an aerodynamic projectile. I don't think fecal matter would stay on a round after its fired, but any protrusion would have some effect if you want accuracy. Considering that a 1 mil deflection will subtend to 1 metre at 1000 metres, you really want the projectile to have as clean and clear a passage as possible. Rahayu
I was wondering why this question was even asked in the first place, considering that it is very hard to defend against an attack that cannot be seen or anticipated. In fact, defense against an ambush will depend a lot on luck if the attacker is well-prepared. There are, however, ways to improve the chances of survival. If this was another forum, I would give an answer based on physics, biomechanics, geometry. But since this is a Silat forum, I'd like to answer it in a different way. I believe spiritual training is very important in self-defense. Ilmu Kebal is known in Filipino esoteric circles as Kabal, as is practised not just by Muslims but also by Christians and animists. I know one particular ritual where one blows a prayer to the four cardinal directions, and then stomps on the ground three times while reciting a prayer to ensure protection. The protection invokes the power of the Sky and Earth. When one meditates, one becomes more aware of one's self as well as the environment. One becomes attuned to the energy of others, malignant or benevolent, and this ability helps one adjust or prepare against a potential attacker. The ability to sense trouble and avoid it is probably more valuable against an ambush attack than any skill based on reaction. Spiritual training also connects one with God, Who is the ultimate Source of Protection. If one is connected to God, one does not worry when one dies, knowing that everyone dies one day. This perspective may not sit very well with those who want to be in absolute control of themselves and their destiny. It is not the answer people want to hear because it just shows how much of our lives depend on things outside of our control. "Does anyone know a 100% sure method of defending against a jailhouse shank?" Only God knows. These rituals may seem strange but actually they are no stranger than the rituals security professionals are trained to do. Why would prayer be more wierd than using the color codes "White", "Yellow" and "Red" in classifying situations? Police officers, for example, are trained never to operate on code White. My friend, were you really looking for a 100% surefire method of self-defense?
The actual question came up in my class when some of my students asked me how do you deal with that particular kind of attack. I honestly worked it out with them to the best of my ability and understanding cause it was an attack non of my previous Kali - escrima/Silat instructors (with the exception of Cass Magda, and Guru CLiff Stewart) trained me for or showed me how to deal with. The reason I asked was because I was interested in finding out what others Silat players's experiences were with this kind of training, or real life experience if any, knowledge about this kind of attack/defense. Yes you are right its very hard to defend if you don't know its coming. But I tell you what I feel much better about the fact that I have been making an effort to train that scenario more and so have my students. And also that some of you guys on this post have shared some good ideas. I think you have to look at things from all perspectives and you have to get the neurological connection in your brain and body solid with every movement you make in your SILAT....Only then will the Ilmu and the Magic happen. If you sit and wait for God to help you defend against a knife ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. I believe in firmly helping yourself and all sentient beings and God will help you. Karma works like a charm. So it's needed to train all scenarios, it's needed to find understanding otherwise you will be a Silat guy that just floats on his high mental cloud and is truly not prepared to handle reality nor be able to teach it to folks who need that kind of training. I have seen silat players and teachers that seriously do some things that would get some one killed in Real life. I have also seen some that have done the opposite and have openly shared with folks what may be the most effecient and most appropriate thing to do if you are caught in those circumstances. I agree with my Guru that the best thing is TARGET DENIAL (in otherwords don't be a target, don't be there for the situation) But if you can avoid then you must know how to deal with it. And its not just the knife scenario we are talking about its ALL combative scenarios. I live in Miami yes its not the worst place but its also not safe. I have personally witnessed robbery, people getting jumped from behind, fights, Gang fights where 20 people have weapons and they are about to rip open a neihgborhood, People pulling guns out at others including at me. People carry knives, Guns etc. 13 year old kids carry them! No matter where you are you have some Bad apples and bad streets. So I think its a responsibility of a Silat Player to train smart and to not leave and holes unplugged in their training including the spiritual aspects. I would hope that the Silat Community online would be willing to share and also talk about all aspects of Pencak Silat and not just the Woo Woo hood doo mystical stuff, flowerdances, or the special breathing technique that will give you impenetrable armour. Life is way to real. You have to investigate and educate your self in all areas of silat. I absolutely agree but everything needs to be in check and in balance. All aspects of Life are important. No I am aware that there is no real 100% way or method but I am aware that if you research and you train and develope you get better and you increasing your chances and your connection to the "Source" so that you can actually deal with it in the Real world real time.
The only time this happened to me was years and years ago, long before I'd heard of Silat. The knife was coming for my groin. I pivoted to the right and blocked the blade with the first knuckle of my left index finger. Still have the scar but still have my testicles
All knife defences have a chance of working against a foolish and robotic type attacker, the kind I have never seen in a real situation. Knives usually come into play in close quarters and the opponent is slashing back and forth and stabbing randomly and erratically. In the 80’s when I was teaching Seminars with my teacher, at the time Pendekar Suryadi Jafri he would pick the smallest person at the seminar, usually a girl. Then he would ask if everyone knew knife defences. Everyone would say Yes, Yes we do. Than he would get the student he picked a Magic Marker and asked than to go and write there name on the face and body of each person as fast as possible while the other person performed their knife defences. I never saw one person who was never marked from head to foot and was left standing in utter embarrassment. So what is the answer? In the finals refinements of Cimande the art of pinpoint precision striking was developed to a very high degree. Even in the Juru’s of Cimande there are three that deal with knife defences and three that deal with knife attacks. The concept is simple but brilliant! Keep your limbs in closed to your body to protect your vital organs and through the practices of the Jurus learn how the first strike to your opponents limbs set him up for a second, third and forth strike to the hand holding the knife. These strikes are done in a lighting fast manner and the termed “Kilap – Lighting strikes” is given in some schools. This is the key! Your limbs must be moving in and out extremely fast to intercept the cuts much as an anti ballistic missile seeks its target. No attack is ever, ever done to any other portion of the attacker’s anatomy unless his knife is gone from his grasp. Once contact is made the arm is stuck to with the principle of adhesion, until the knife is gone. This means if at the first strike he starts to recoil the hand rather than stepping back, you move forward keeping the blows raining down on his limbs with viscous rapidity. One way this type of hitting is developed is by playing the drums, like a Congo drum, the short fast loose type strikes to the drum, build the concept within the practioner of accurate fast short strikes which we also call “Poison Hand Hitting” It is call this because to the uninitiated it can appear as though the defender must have poison on the hands in order to take out the adversary so quickly with almost nothing seen. Now what if you are fighting with the knife also? Well that’s where the other three juru’s come into play that teach knife offences. Also the role of the empty hand is now replaces with the same quick fast snap cuts and slashes of the knife. A snap cut is a technique in which the edge of the blade is snapped with an action of the wrist quickly forward so the edge is driven to the bone at once severing tendons and ligaments on the way. A student, who wished to learn these techniques, should seek out a Qualified Pukulan Cimande Pusaka Instructor. Both forward and reverse grips are utilizes. A person who is confident and assumes the Cimande on guard knife position is less likely to even be attack than most other ready positions. Through the years I have had matches with individuals using wooden and rubber knives. Some were so called experts, Navy Seals etc… The wooden knives break bones with these techniques and the rubber ones cut very easy. Nothing is guaranteed to work every time but this is the best insurance policy I know of when faced with a knife Wielding assailant... Pendekar William Sanders
It sounds interesting SilatLiam. The fact is that most military I know base their training on verifiable factual experience ... and it changes to remain updated to the contingencies and experience of the time. In the west, hand to hand combat has been observed and documented since before the days of the British Raj, and generally they've done a good job. The Japanese I think also fall into the category of verifiable techniques with blades. While I am Javanese, realistically I find that it is often difficult to pinpoint the veracity of many Javanese claims to effectiveness, as it has been mainly through word of mouth. I'm not saying that Javanese blade knowledge is inefective, I'm saying that documented evidence is rare to my knowledge. In WWi & II the favourite weapon for close quarter combat was the ubiquitous entrenching tool, bayonets etc were used mainly in fixed mode. Biggest problem with bayonets it turns out is that it's hard to stick into someone, and even harder to get it out of someone ... much better to bludgeon anad decapitate with said entrenching tool. I find it interesting that in MA theorising about knife implementation, that so few actually consider that sticking someone is not as simple as a lighting snap strike ... it takes a lot of effort to stab, easier to slash but generally not as effective, and then add to that sweat, blood and grime on your slippery hands, their slippery body parts ... and you begin to have a major problem. I'm not suggesting for a moment that your methods won't work, but the general public are free to embellish, take for example the mythic past, the Mahabaratha, Camelot etc. (Responding to the jibe about Navy Seals and "so called experts"). Playing with rubber/wooden knives while establishing a possibilty, does not engender the same emotive response one would feel when faced with a real person intent on killing you ... that's a whole different ball game.
This may seem wierd but when you have made the connection with God (I am not saying that you haven't), then God (or Yahweh, Tagbusaw, Wakan Tanka, Allah...) in-dwells in you. You have become His/Her Temple. Your breath is His/Her Breath. When you move, He/She moves. There is no waiting for the Other because there is only One. Then miracles can happen, such as surviving a 98% sure ambush attack. Just like any other martial art style, there are those who can and those who can't. Silat is no different. I know real masters who have esoteric knowledge but they still train in physical techniques. Why? Ilmu Kebal, or Kabal, does not replace practical self-defense.
salaams all, for me a lot depends on your psychological framework, in the realistic knife attack situation you are probably not going to see the knife until its too late, all you will know is that a negative force intent on harm has entered your innately perceived " personal security zone " - this is an innate survival instinct that can be developed and enhanced with training - what will keep you alive long enough to know there is a knife is a sucessfull elakan - that one second that gets you out of the strike and into the other second where you have a counter attack option. we all know that in this situation technique is gone - only the hardwired instinctive response remains and that is where your training comes into play - if you are still alive you must respond with 100% brutal aggressive force - not be paralysed or shocked by fear. That is where realistic training comes in - get the knives out and get medieval on your partner - really its for his / her own good , then try it blindfolded .
Well I disagree with you here. I have seen, handled and worked with sharp knives. for years I worked for Knife designer Laci Szabo at http://szaboinc.com/. As an empolyee there our boss would make us knife spar with rubber daggers and goggles no gloves no mouth pieces. I saw dudes get the dagger in their mouths and ears. Ugly Ugly and lots of pain. I saw guys get welts on their hands and drop the knife in seconds. Grant it those where rubber but it was no easy task to go against guys that know a lot about knives. As for real blades, countless times at work I have seen people and employees easily by mistake open up huge wounds cause they didn't handle the knife properly. Usually they didn't even feel they got cut and the next thing you know they need stiches or they wont stop bleeding. I even saw a Kali/jkd guy who was great at fancy sinawali completely open his inner bicep cause he had never trained with real blades. He sliced it open and didn't even realize till much later he had cut him self that is how sharp the knife was. He was getting dizzy cause of blood loss. A sharp knife is a Sharp knife! Its very easy to cut or get cut with it. And if it has a point it can easily puncture you unless as someone suggested before you have a ton of clothing on or some phone books around your gut...That blade is going to go in no matter what. I doesn't take much if you have the right tool and the skill. Kids in south america or indonesia, or even american Ghettos can screw you up bad with a little sharp screwdriver. I have seen footage of inmates stabbing eachother and yes it took blood sweat and effort but they manage to drive the knife in 50 times or more in less than 3 minutes. Take a sharp knife and stab and slash a hanging piece of meat see what happens. Even use thick cardboard hang it up and go at it....see what happens. Its scary how real and effective the the knife is and how easy it is to use. peace silatyogi
Knifefighting I gues this is what is coming out of this discussion: Is it difficult to stab/slash a person? Under certain conditions, yes. Is it easy to stab/slash a person? Under certain conditions, yes. Is it difficult to defend against a stab/slash? Under almost all conditions, yes. Is it easy to defend against a stab/slash? Absolutely not.
knifefighting... very juicy- but bloody, indeed. ehehe... practicing is such a great pasttime- makes you thnk about the thinline between life & death...
