knife and gun defense

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Kenpo_Iz_Active, Feb 19, 2007.

  1. pj_goober

    pj_goober Valued Member

    Just out of interest, those people who train knife defences, of any type. Do you occasionally break out live (i.e. Sharp) knives to train with in a controlled manner, to get a feeling for the fear reaction?

    The style i train in does, not always, and only with grades who are competant enough training with wooden or rubber knives full force (attacker not holding back, not complying) to be able to cope with live knife under controlled circumstances with minimal resistance.

    I've done this a couple of times and it does give an interesting insight into the bodys adrenal/fear reaction to just seeing a sharp blade in the hands of someone about to attack you.

    Whats your opinions on the value of doing this occassionally (as a complement to more alive training with safety blades)?

    Also do you train with varied types of edged weapon (i've trained with various rubber, wood or plastic versions of ; cutthroat razors, stanley knives, machetes, tantos, broken bottles, amongst others) as this also gives an interesting insight into edged weapons defences that training only with standard wooden tanto might not.
     
  2. Kew-Do

    Kew-Do Valued Member

    No....

    The same way as I do not train with live ammunition in my duty weapon when we do police officer specific training. Training is important but not at the expense of some one getting seriously hurt or killed. a knife at close range, especially if the guy doing a drill with a partner who has minimal training,....can do more damage than a gun, if an accident happens.

    In my professional opinion, the people who do practice with real edges have many YEARS of training....Do you?

    ....If not, leave the real edge work to the professionals and save the money that you would spend for the 100+ stitches that you would have to receive from this type of horseplay.

    Kew-Do
     
  3. pj_goober

    pj_goober Valued Member

    I thought my post made it clear that this is something that only high grades (typically 4 or so years of training +) do, and even then only when the instructor at the time is confident that they can do the drills with resistance and a training knife. Then and only then might you occasionally do the techniques with minimal resistance and a live blade.

    I've been doing ju-jitsu 6 year and i've done live knife training twice. Its interesting to get a feeling for the fear associated with live blades, but regular training with a lot of resistance and a training knife is far better for your knife defences generally.
     
  4. bmcgonag

    bmcgonag Valued Member

    I would just add a step to this, randomly comply with their instructions, Maybe only resist 3 or 4 times out of 12.

    There are actually some great, fast, easy techniques for disarming a gun at close range. Beyond that, run, zig-zag a lot, and get behind anything fast.

    Knives...the best thing to do, is run, if you can't run, at least try to figure out if they know what they are doing. If they do, defenses will vary from the ones used on someone who doesn't. The best way to learn how to tell if someone knows what they are doing is to train in the subject yourself.

    I worked with a cop, who could pull a knife from behind him, stab you 4 times and have it put away again before you could even react.

    Also, on gun disarming at close range, there are also police studies, mostly by SWAT teams, that have shown that reaction is always lagging vs. action. So if you are going to attempt to disarm, be trained in it, commit to it, be fast, and their reaction time will give you a good chance of them missing. I train cops still to this day on how to disarm a gun at close range, whether held by a moron, or by someone who knows what they're doing. It's all about training ALOT, it has to be second nature for it to be successful. By that I mean when you've practiced to the point that you can perform it correctly 100% of the time, you could do it with a good chance of success. If you practice and still miss, I would comply and run.

    Best,

    Brian
     
  5. angacam

    angacam Mare Est Vita Mea

    Your post was clear to me PJ. I have worked with live blades on several occasions. We would usually work with chainmail style gloves and welding jackets (heavy leather) for protection. You are correct it does add an interesting element to the training.
     
  6. Kew-Do

    Kew-Do Valued Member

    Nice post!!! I enjoyed the READ!

    Kew-Do
     
  7. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Everything I would have thought to have posted was in here. Thanks for the contribution.

    - Matt
     
  8. bmcgonag

    bmcgonag Valued Member

    I appreciate it guys. I still have a lot of very good friends in law enforcement, and if my eyes hadn't gone bad on me, I'd still be in it too. I worry about them every single day, and everytime I see them, I test them. If they screw up...we work on it over and over and over, and when I feel like they've got it again, I let them go back to work.

    I know alot of you guys are cops, and seriously, you can never be over trained, or over prepared, so train hard, keep your nose to the wind and your butt down, and be careful out there.

    Brian
     
  9. Kew-Do

    Kew-Do Valued Member

    Thank you Brian, I'll keep that in mind! I am 5'08" and 180 lbs and just turned 45. Although I only serve part time, around 25 hours a week, It only takes a few sec.. to get into a nasty situation. I train to keep in shape, for health and for the fact that I am a small guy and have had to deal with 6'00"+ people.

    I cannot understand why anyone would be in Law Enforcement today and not want to stay in the best possible shape that they can! Obviously we have all seen with our own eyes the officer who has a hard time getting into his own cruiser, or the Officer when he is standing, his Duty belt has stretched to a horizontal position under his "Big Belly" instead of vertical flat position on their stomach where it should be.

    Would you drive down the street without car insurance this day and age?

    That's what these guys are doing by not physically preparing themselves, even if you look at basic "ergonomics" and back safety, they're setting themselves up for injury or worst.

    Kew-Do
     
  10. MrWesson22

    MrWesson22 Valued Member

    As you can see, this is my first post here. I'm just about to start studying judo and jujitsu as of tomorrow. I wanted to give my $.02 on this thread. First, I'll share a brief background. I'm 26 and have been shooting since I was 5. I started out with shooting coke cans while sitting in my grandfather's lap with a .22 single shot rifle. I've loved it ever since and am a self-professed gun nut. I currently own several handguns, a couple shotguns, and one rifle (my deer rifle, though I no longer hunt). I regularly carry a Colt Government Model 1911 .45ACP. And yes, I do have a concealed carry permit. I am also an infantryman in the Army National Guard and served as infantry in the active duty Army previously (I tore up my knees and was medically discharged from active duty).

    Talk of disarming a gun-wielding thug is more than a bit dangerous. If you try to disarm anyone who has anywhere near the same level of training in real firearms use that you do with martial arts, chances are you will be shot. When I shoot handguns, I use a position that would probably look familiar to martial artists though obviously different.

    I am right handed and face the target then make about a 45 degree turn to the right with my hips and feet. Left foot is forward; right foot is back. My knees are slightly bent. My right hand is slightly pushing forward with the weapon, while my elbow remains bent at around a 150 degree angle. My left hand is wrapped around the fingers of my right on the front of the grip and is slightly pulling back towards my body. When I draw, I crouch a bit lower than my shooting position, have my feet in my shooting position, and with my weapon carried behind my right hip, it is on the opposite side of my body from my target. Depending on whether I am carrying concealed or openly (as in out in the woods shooting for fun, etc), my left hand will either be pulling my shirt out of the way or out in front of me waiting for my right hand to come up to the weapon ready position.

    If I had to draw and shoot someone at point blank range, first of all I already messed up because the weapon should be out and ready as soon as the threat was realized, which should have been at a range of more than 6 feet. Beyond that, I would use my left arm to hold the assailant at as much distance as possible as well as block any attempts to interfere with my gun hand. Once my weapon was drawn, it would stay back at about my right hip and would be fired from this spot. The point is, you're not going to be able to disarm a weapon held back at that distance and fended off by their off hand. You might be able to try some sort of throw or arm bar on the off hand, but you're probably going to be shot in the process. I am by no means an expert, and I can regularly keep my shots in a softball sized pattern at 25 meters firing about every 1.5 seconds. If I fire faster, it opens up some of course, but this is 25m. I can empty the weapon as fast as possible two handed from 7m and keep everything in a baseball sized pattern. Point firing at a target 2ft away is not going to be a problem for anyone familiar with their weapon.

    If a gangbanger/thug/hooligan/whatever that is completely inexperienced sticks a pistol in your face demanding money, give him the money. If it is clear you have no option but to be shot or try to resist, there are a couple things you can do. I am no martial artist, but I do know weapons. I'll address both semiautos and revolvers. Revolvers aren't that common on the streets around here from what I've seen. It may be different elsewhere. I'll address both semiautos and revolvers. No semiautomatic pistol can fire even a single round if the weapon is not in battery (that is, the slide is not all the way forward). Regardless of what Jet Li movies have shown us, there is no way to disassemble a Beretta that is stuck in your face, but there is an easy way to make it unable to fire.

    When you go to grab the weapon, the barrel/slide assembly is the easiest and most natural part to grab. Grab the weapon so that your thumb is underneath the slide on the frame of the gun and about even with halfway between your middle and ring fingers. The rest of your fingers will go on top of the slide along the sight radius. With your thumb in this position, once you squeeze your grip so that your thumb is back to just outside your index finger, it will pull the slide out of battery and keep it there as long as you do not let go. If the slide won't pull backwards out of battery, this means he has the safety on (though with most weapons you see today, you'll still be able to pull the slide back even with the manual safety engaged). If the safety is on, obviously it is going to require more fine motor skill action on the part of the assailant before the weapon can be fired. This will give you the split second you need to attempt a disarm, break the assailant's arm, etc. Don't focus on this, but the magazine release is right behind the trigger on the left side of the gun on 95+% of all pistols. It's typically a round button. If you can hit the release, at least that will turn it into a single shot if the weapon is able to be used. Attempting to put your finger between the hammer and frame on a semiauto is always a bad idea. For one, most of the semiautos today are either a traditional double action (weapon can be fired from the hammer down position) or a double action only/striker fired which isn't going to have an external hammer to begin with.

    As for a revolver, it's going to be tougher. Most still have external hammers, but many of the smaller snub nosed revolvers today have shrouded or completely concealed hammers. If the hammer is back, the only way you can prevent him from firing is by placing your finger between the hammer and the frame. If the hammer isn't back, you're not going to be able to prevent him from firing unless you're Hercules and can hold the cylinder tight enough to where he cannot pull the trigger to rotate the cylinder and fire the weapon.

    As I have said, I'm not a martial artist. I'm also not a lawyer or doctor and would not be presumptuous enough to give legal or medical advice. I will say though that if you do carry a knife, someone clearly cannot squeeze a trigger if you have severed all the tendons in their gun hand. It may be something to consider, but I do not know what sort of techniques you would use with a blade to accomplish this task or if it would even be the best use of a knife.

    I know this post is quite lengthy, but I hope at a minimum it'll help some of you with a few basic ideas behind mechanically rendering a pistol unable to fire and the difficulty behind doing so - especially against anyone who knows what they're doing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2007
  11. fire74

    fire74 New Member

    I am relatively new to self defense studies,and have been doing research on the subject of knife defense. I have found some excellent information on http://www.sammyfranco.com . This site contains articles on real world self defense, and has instructional dvds for sale. I have purchased the Control and Conquer dvd, and it is awesome. It demonstrates effective ways to control a knife attack situation.I recommend it to anyone who seeks info on the subject.
     
  12. bmcgonag

    bmcgonag Valued Member

    You have some good points, but I disagree on the following:

    The position you discuss is called standing "bladed". The way you are describing pulling your weapon while keeping someone back, and holding your hand back by your hip is a defensive technique against an attack. We are talking about defending against an attack where the gun is the attackers weapon of choice.

    And, of course, depending on how someone is holding the weapon, will depend on what you should try, not try, etc.

    It can't be stressed enough that if you believe that being compliant will save your life, then just be compliant.

    But if you believe that you will be shot either way, then you need to make a choice of whether you will fight, or take your chances.

    The technique you describe about disabling the automatic/semiauto handgun, by pressing the slide back with the thumb, would not only take an immense amount of perfection, but also would almost certainly guarantee that you would be shot. This is difficult to do when you yourself are holding the gun, and much less when a shaky moron is holding it barrel toward you.

    The best method is always, move out of the path of the bullet, then worry about how to control the gun arm. Now while that seems like it might take a bit, if you train properly, and dilligently, those two pieces can follow each other in a split second.

    Look at my website below my signature, and check the podcast 3, and Police Edition podcast. These are actual techniques that Law enforcement train on, and have used successfully in the field. I train law enforcement on them still to this day.

    If I can say nothing else, get the gun pointed away from you. If you can get ahold of the controlling arm, and can't get the gun away from them, try something different. But keep the gun pointed away from you.
     
  13. MrWesson22

    MrWesson22 Valued Member

    Naturally, the direction of the muzzle is the primary concern. I was merely attempting to share ways to at least temporarily disable a semiauto handgun. I am a complete MA novice, and I have no trouble using the slide technique I described once I get my hand on the weapon. Of course, I'm basically holding my 1911 like this every time I field strip it for cleaning, so it feels natural to me.

    I do see your point about my defensive draw of the weapon, however. It's going to have little to no relevance to techniques for a MAist who is attempting to survive a mugging, assault, etc from a gun-wielding assailant. My point in describing it was to show how easy it is to fend off disarm attempts and be able to shoot someone attempting said attempts for a gun wielder who has any clue what they're doing. I was trying to distinguish with a mental picture a drastically different idea between your typical street thug sticking a sideways Glock (or Hi-Point, or whatever) in your face and someone who has some training and is keeping the weapon in and guarded.

    Edit: I just watched your two videos and have a couple of nitpicks. First of all, as I've said before, anyone who knows what they are doing isn't going to have the pistol at that perfect 1.5-2ft away from you distance in order for this technique to work. If the pistol is either directly against you or is a bit further away, it won't work. Not to sound too critical, but the girl in the videos still had a poor stance even when demonstrating the "trained" gun assailant. The weapon was extended entirely too far, her knees weren't bent at all, all her weight was on her back leg, and you could tell she had no push-pull stability to the weapon at all. One more final nitpick - it's not a clip. It's a magazine. A clip is what M1 Garands use. If it holds the entire bullet, it is a magazine. I know that is picky, but technical accuracy gives credibility.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2007
  14. Kew-Do

    Kew-Do Valued Member

    I agree with this post.....you also have to take into consideration what happens to the human body during "Primal Reflex" as well as loosing "Fine Motor Skills"! Have you ever tried to perform a complex movement working with "Gross Motor Skills"? Not easy.....

    I do not mean to be disrespectful, and please don't take this as judgmental, however, I was not impressed with what I saw on the tape. As a police officer and as a close range police officer instructor as well as S.W.A.T. Training instructor...we would never perform the "clap technique"...it is seize..control. If you are lucky and it works super...however by "slapping" what if the guy doesn't let go and comes back at you firing. Many of the S.W.A.T. And Tactical Close Range Seminars I attended over the past 20 years additionally promote the Seize...control method. Have you ever heard of this?

    Once again, I mean no disrespect, I do agree with your post, however, differ in the "Police Application in the Videos.

    Kew-Do
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2007
  15. angacam

    angacam Mare Est Vita Mea

    I second what Kew-Do is saying here. I have shown the Clap Techniques as a demonstration of how the hand muscles work but only as a demo of this piece of anatomy. The timing has to be too perfect for it to be a trully viable self defense option. look at it from this stand point, against knife, if your timing is off the results could range from being stabbed in the hand to getting your wrist slashed on the retracting of the blade. Against a gun, if your targeting is off and you don't get offline correctly the gun will still be aimed at you when it goes off, and it will go off. If you do succed partially it will go off and you have lost muzzle control and may have just downed an inocent bystander possibly even one you were attempting to protect. If the technique does work and the gun leaves perps hand now you don't know who will pick it up and it may still fire when it hits the ground again with no muzzel control.
     
  16. Kew-Do

    Kew-Do Valued Member

    Hi Angacam...

    I agree with your post and so do many others in my field due to the fact that when your body stresses and goes into "Primal Reflex" you loose fine motor skills. While in Gross Motor Skill mode...It is very difficult to perform any type of techniques that requires a complex movement.

    Even Officers who had medium retention holsters have been shot to death because they could not draw their duty weapon.

    Hope this doesn't seem too long but since we are on the topic....

    "From Force Science News provided by The Force Science Research Center."

    ...New findings on how offenders train with, carry and deploy the weapons they use to attack police officers have emerged in a just-published, 5-year study by the FBI.

    Among other things, the data reveal that most would-be cop killers:
    --show signs of being armed that officers miss;
    --have more experience using deadly force in “street combat” than their intended victims;
    --practice with firearms more often and shoot more accurately;
    --have no hesitation whatsoever about pulling the trigger. “If you hesitate,” one told the study’s researchers, “you’re dead. You have the instinct or you don’t. If you don’t, you’re in trouble on the street….”

    These and other weapons-related findings comprise one chapter in a 180-page research summary called “Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation’s Law Enforcement Officers.” The study is the third in a series of long investigations into fatal and nonfatal attacks on POs by the FBI team of Dr. Anthony Pinizzotto, clinical forensic psychologist, and Ed Davis, criminal investigative instructor, both with the Bureau’s Behavioral Science Unit, and Charles Miller III, coordinator of the LEOs Killed and Assaulted program.

    “Violent Encounters” also reports in detail on the personal characteristics of attacked officers and their assaulters, the role of perception in life-threatening confrontations, the myths of memory that can hamper OIS investigations, the suicide-by-cop phenomenon, current training issues, and other matters relevant to officer survival. (Force Science News and our strategic partner PoliceOne.com will be reporting on more findings from this landmark study in future transmissions.)
    Commenting on the broad-based study, Dr. Bill Lewinski, executive director of the Force Science Research Center at Minnesota State University-Mankato, called it “very challenging and insightful--important work that only a handful of gifted and experienced researchers could accomplish.”
    From a pool of more than 800 incidents, the researchers selected 40, involving 43 offenders (13 of them admitted gangbangers-drug traffickers) and 50 officers, for in-depth exploration. They visited crime scenes and extensively interviewed surviving officers and attackers alike, most of the latter in prison.
    Here are highlights of what they learned about weapon selection, familiarity, transport and use by criminals attempting to murder cops, a small portion of the overall research:

    Weapon Choice
    Predominately handguns were used in the assaults on officers and all but one were obtained illegally, usually in street transactions or in thefts. In contrast to media myth, none of the firearms in the study was obtained from gun shows. What was available “was the overriding factor in weapon choice,” the report says. Only 1 offender hand-picked a particular gun “because he felt it would do the most damage to a human being.”

    Researcher Davis, in a presentation and discussion for the International Assn. of Chiefs of Police, noted that none of the attackers interviewed was “hindered by any law--federal, state or local--that has ever been established to prevent gun ownership. They just laughed at gun laws.”

    Familiarity
    Several of the offenders began regularly to carry weapons when they were 9 to 12 years old, although the average age was 17 when they first started packing “most of the time.” Gang members especially started young.

    Nearly 40% of the offenders had some type of formal firearms training, primarily from the military. More than 80% “regularly practiced with handguns, averaging 23 practice sessions a year,” the study reports, usually in informal settings like trash dumps, rural woods, back yards and “street corners in known drug-trafficking areas.”

    One spoke of being motivated to improve his gun skills by his belief that officers “go to the range two, three times a week [and] practice arms so they can hit anything.”
    In reality, victim officers in the study averaged just 14 hours of sidearm training and 2.5 qualifications per year. Only 6 of the 50 officers reported practicing regularly with handguns apart from what their department required, and that was mostly in competitive shooting. Overall, the offenders practiced more often than the officers they assaulted, and this “may have helped increase [their] marksmanship skills,” the study says.

    The offender quoted above about his practice motivation, for example, fired 12 rounds at an officer, striking him 3 times. The officer fired 7 rounds, all misses.

    More than 40% of the offenders had been involved in actual shooting confrontations before they feloniously assaulted an officer. Ten of these “street combat veterans,” all from “inner-city, drug-trafficking environments,” had taken part in 5 or more “criminal firefight experiences” in their lifetime.

    One reported that he was 14 when he was first shot on the street, “about 18 before a cop shot me.” Another said getting shot was a pivotal experience “because I made up my mind no one was gonna shoot me again.”

    Again in contrast, only 8 of the 50 LEO victims had participated in a prior shooting; 1 had been involved in 2 previously, another in 3. Seven of the 8 had killed offenders.

    Concealment
    The offenders said they most often hid guns on their person in the front waistband, with the groin area and the small of the back nearly tied for second place. Some occasionally gave their weapons to another person to carry, “most often a female companion.” None regularly used a holster, and about 40% at least sometimes carried a backup weapon.

    In motor vehicles, they most often kept their firearm readily available on their person, or, less often, under the seat. In residences, most stashed their weapon under a pillow, on a nightstand, under the mattress--somewhere within immediate reach while in bed.

    Almost all carried when on the move and strong majorities did so when socializing, committing crimes or being at home. About one-third brought weapons with them to work. Interestingly, the offenders in this study more commonly admitted having guns under all these circumstances than did offenders interviewed in the researchers’ earlier 2 surveys, conducted in the 1980s and ’90s.

    According to Davis, “Male offenders said time and time again that female officers tend to search them more thoroughly than male officers. In prison, most of the offenders were more afraid to carry contraband or weapons when a female CO was on duty.”

    On the street, however, both male and female officers too often regard female subjects “as less of a threat, assuming that they not going to have a gun,” Davis said. In truth, the researchers concluded that more female offenders are armed today than 20 years ago--“not just female gang associates, but female offenders generally.”

    Shooting Style
    Twenty-six of the offenders [about 60%], including all of the street combat veterans, “claimed to be instinctive shooters, pointing and firing the weapon without consciously aligning the sights,” the study says.
    “They practice getting the gun out and using it,” Davis explained. “They shoot for effect.” Or as one of the offenders put it: “[W]e’re not working with no marksmanship….We just putting it in your direction, you know….It don’t matter…as long as it’s gonna hit you…if it’s up at your head or your chest, down at your legs, whatever….Once I squeeze and you fall, then…if I want to execute you, then I could go from there.”

    Hit Rate
    More often than the officers they attacked, offenders delivered at least some rounds on target in their encounters. Nearly 70% of assailants were successful in that regard with handguns, compared to about 40% of the victim officers, the study found. (Efforts of offenders and officers to get on target were considered successful if any rounds struck, regardless of the number fired.)

    Davis speculated that the offenders might have had an advantage because in all but 3 cases they fired first, usually catching the officer by surprise. Indeed, the report points out, “10 of the total victim officers had been wounded [and thus impaired] before they returned gunfire at their attackers.”

    Missed Cues
    Officers would less likely be caught off guard by attackers if they were more observant of indicators of concealed weapons, the study concludes. These particularly include manners of dress, ways of moving and unconscious gestures often related to carrying.

    “Officers should look for unnatural protrusions or bulges in the waist, back and crotch areas,” the study says, and watch for “shirts that appear rippled or wavy on one side of the body while the fabric on the other side appears smooth.” In warm weather, multi layered clothing inappropriate to the temperature may be a giveaway. On cold or rainy days, a subject’s jacket hood may not be covering his head because it is being used to conceal a handgun.

    Because they eschew holsters, offenders reported frequently touching a concealed gun with hands or arms “to assure themselves that it is still hidden, secure and accessible” and hasn’t shifted. Such gestures are especially noticeable “whenever individuals change body positions, such as standing, sitting or exiting a vehicle.” If they run, they may need to keep a constant grip on a hidden gun to control it.

    Just as cops generally blade their body to make their sidearm less accessible, armed criminals “do the same in encounters with LEOs to ensure concealment and easy access.”

    An irony, Davis noted, is that officers who are assigned to look for concealed weapons, while working off-duty security at night clubs for instance, are often highly proficient at detecting them. “But then when they go back to the street without that specific assignment, they seem to ‘turn off’ that skill,” and thus are startled--sometimes fatally--when a suspect suddenly produces a weapon and attacks.

    Mind-set
    Thirty-six of the 50 officers in the study had “experienced hazardous situations where they had the legal authority” to use deadly force “but chose not to shoot.” They averaged 4 such prior incidents before the encounters that the researchers investigated. “It appeared clear that none of these officers were willing to use deadly force against an offender if other options were available,” the researchers concluded.

    The offenders were of a different mind-set entirely. In fact, Davis said the study team “did not realize how cold blooded the younger generation of offender is. They have been exposed to killing after killing, they fully expect to get killed and they don’t hesitate to shoot anybody, including a police officer. They can go from riding down the street saying what a beautiful day it is to killing in the next instant.”

    “Offenders typically displayed no moral or ethical restraints in using firearms,” the report states. “In fact, the street combat veterans survived by developing a shoot-first mentality.

    “Officers never can assume that a criminal is unarmed until they have thoroughly searched the person and the surroundings themselves.” Nor, in the interest of personal safety, can officers “let their guards down in any type of law enforcement situation.”
     
  17. angacam

    angacam Mare Est Vita Mea

    Thank Kew-Do, with your permission may I copy that last post of yours into my personal notes. It is always a good day when I can add researched statistics to my notebooks.
     
  18. MrWesson22

    MrWesson22 Valued Member

    That is good stuff. I'm not going to get political, but the statistics speak for themselves when it comes to one issue in particular.
     
  19. Connovar

    Connovar Banned Banned

    I would like to offer 3 basic principles of an effective firearm disarm.

    1)Rotation: rotating the body or facial plane out of the direction of the muzzle

    2)Penetration: Moving the body in past the point of the firearm

    3)Pushing: Gripping the weapon with a pushing motion rather than a pulling one since if both people pull on a weapon or arm holding the weapon the muzzle tends to line up with the defenders body or face,

    For example in the situation with perp having a gun in his rt hand near his waist and his free hand extended out to fend away one approach would be as follows. (Of course given that he is close enough) Yuu rotate your body clockwise to a sideways position with your rit side now towards the perp. At the same your rt hand comes and begins pushgrabbing the perps left forearm away from you and toward the perps rt side. At the same time you are stepping in deep with the rt foot. You are now essentially standing with your body facing the back of his left arm and shoulder. His own body is between the muzzle and you. He cannot spin away because of the hold on the. You now procede with your choice of attacks continuing to dirve him away from you and prefereably onto the ground on his rt side or stomach.

    We did this maneuver live fire with simmunition type rounds against full resistance from the perp trainer with a very high success rate

    A key to disarms is smoothness. I try to go 3/4 speed with a focus on smoothness wlhich goes well for me as sudden jumpy moves give off your intentions and they often will fire quicker because of it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2007
  20. Kew-Do

    Kew-Do Valued Member


    Hi Sangacam...

    Sure you can save and use this info it is "Public Domain" and was taken from:

    "From Force Science News provided by The Force Science Research Center."

    Obviously the information stated therein is no revelation to those who work closely to law enforcement personnel.
    It is sad however that more officers do not take their personal training more seriously.

    It's like insurance when you need it....no one likes to pay their dues...however, you're sure glad you did when an incident occures when it's needed!!!!!

    Kew-Do
     

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