knife and gun defense

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Kenpo_Iz_Active, Feb 19, 2007.

  1. rubberband

    rubberband Valued Member

    As with all martial art techniques success in gun or knife defense depends largely on the context of the confrontation... psychology for instance can play a major role in the context of an encounter... for instance to an attacker a gun or knife may be a symbol of control and power and not be percieved as a weapon to the wielder and therefore may be used ineffectively... weapons sometimes become attention getters... like in some domestic attacks where a spouse stabs the other with a fork for not listening to their needs... also the stress level of the attacker can interfere with ability of the attacker to use the weapon... or make the attacker more apt to use the weapon if they see it as a pure weapon... one must learn to read others...
    If someone wants to do you in then the first you hear of it is when you've been attacked and are bleeding as shock sets in... so having a safe life style and monitoring your social interactions go a long way toward self protection...

    strategy and tactics as well as awareness are the keys to surviving any type of attack...

    in the event that your attacker shows the weapon... this may suggest that the weapon is an icon meant to draw your focus onto the power of your attacker.... and often the best bet is to give them control until you must act or find a clear opening to escape or draw your weapon and :woo:

    take care, steve
     
  2. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Of course this wouldn't work if the gun didn't have a hammer, or if you are at a longer range. Within 6 feet though, and if you are going for the gun, it's a good bet. In the case of a gun without a hammer, it's also good to hold on to the muzzle as well (and point the gun away from you of course). Your hand will get singed, but the gun won't be able to reload.
     
  3. Shiho-Nage

    Shiho-Nage I'm okay to go.

    If you decide its necessary to fight instead of comply (assuming they have something to comply with) its imperative that the weapon bearing arm be controlled as soon as possible. All other objectives are a distant second.

    Once you've managed to control the weapon bearing arm you destroy it. Make it so that it no longer functions at all. This should lead to a disarm either naturally from the person's inability to continue holding the weapon or you forcibly removing it.

    At this point you may now have the option of extricating yourself or continuing the fight and attempting to control the assailant. A big no, no here is peoples' inclination to now use the weapon they have in their possession against their attacker. This will most likely land you in serious legal peril. Unless the circumstances warrant that level of force (they are going for a backup weapon, there are multiple assailants that are still a threat to you, the assailant has continued violence and threats of a serious nature).

    First and foremost, get off line of the weapon and get close and inside to control it then destroy their ability to use the weapon bearing arm.

    My teacher always tells us that most people are cut an average of two times before they even realize they are dealing with an edged weapon. I agree with those saying that 'knife defense' shouldn't be any different from unarmed defense. You should always be trying to get off line of the attack, get inside their power range and control.

    Now, gun defense is a completely different animal and much more difficult. Past a certain range there's almost no hope of being able to close the distance and gain control. Your best bet is that the person is inexperienced and tries to hotdog it with intimidation by putting the gun right up to your head/face/body.

    Something else I've heard instructors say to give you a slight edge is to get the person to talk. Ask them anything they might respond to and when they do is when you act. The process of them thinking/answering/talking creates a very brief disconnect in their brain which slows their physical reaction time. Its a small delay but even that can make the difference.
     
  4. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    More like three feet, you really don't want to try from that far out and it's not a good bet. The hammer is a very small area at the rear of the firearm, it's a very high-stress situation and it may not work. It's anologus to recomending a pressure point attack.

    Don't count on being able to muck up the reloading process by holding on. Too many variables, although it is something to try. You'll probably catch some hot powder when the weapon goes off but since you are holding the slide and not the actual barrel it shouldn't be too bad. If you are touching the barrel the first shot will be very uncomfortable and subsequent shots will make it akin to holding the exhaust pipe after riding your motorcycle up the block and back.
     
  5. angacam

    angacam Mare Est Vita Mea

    Trying to get fancy with gun defenses is foolish. Stop thinking of messing up the reload, stopping the hammer, etc... That stuff only works on some guns and unless you are an expert at gun recogition under extreme stress it won't help you.

    When presented with a gun up close.
    1: hands up palms out. This shows compliance and can be used to calm and or distract bad guy. when hands come up put them at the same level as the gun, this allows them to be used faster if needed.
    2: Give the guy what he asks for. One exception to this is mainly for ladies, NEVER, NEVER, EVER alow yourself to be taken to another location. In most cases this leads to the perp killing you once he is done.
    3: When and if to act will need to be a judgement call on your part. at this point act, tell them about your family, make small hand movements showing fear and compliance.
    4: Move quickly off line twisting your body to presnet the minimum target while at the same time attempting to gain control of the firearm. I prefer to grab perps wrist with the hand closest to him while bringing the other hand up under the barrell of the weapon. If done correctly this will allow you to lock perps finger with trigger guard. Note: the gun will most likely fire at any attempt to disarm. Be prepared for this. I belive I mentioned earlier the muzzel flash and the noise of the discharge can be disorienting if you have never experienced it up close.
    5: Take Gun and get out of there. Do not leave gun, he may be down but if he gets up before you are out of sight your back still makes a good target. Do not wait there for police. If you want to be a good citizen go to a public place and call the police. Waiting around can lead to his friends showing up or simply shooting you from the shadows where they may be waiting out of your sight.
    Personally, once I take the gun he gets 2 center mass then I go home. Thats just me though and it is a personal desision.
     
  6. RandomTriangle

    RandomTriangle Valued Member

    i posted this in the articles section. i think it applies here as well.

    i think the whole "Comply if you can... be aware of your surroundings... use an improvised weapon... run if you can...etc" goes without saying.

    As i previously said MY issue is that i don't believe i'd ever see the knife. I treat EVERY PUNCH like it's a knife attack.

    It's easy to say "i'd use an improvised weapon against a knife," but if the attacker is using a push dagger (which would make it look like he is punching, NOT stabbing at you) you would probably try to fight "fair."

    How many of you would use an improvised weapon against a "punch?"

    much respect
    RT
     
  7. angacam

    angacam Mare Est Vita Mea

    Ok, stop, "Fight Fair"? I really hate to burst your bubble, oh hell, no I don't! If no one here ever hears a single other word I say please hear this one. Get over this fantasy idea of a fair fight. There ain't no such animal anymore unless you are in the ring. The idea that each punch may hold a weapon and that you will probably not even see the weapon before it is too late only reenforces my point that you must treat EVERY ATTACK "in the street" as a life theatening one. NO I will not "Fight Fair" EVER, if anyone lays hands on me or someone in my care it is the agressor who has decided his or her own fate not me. Lets not even go to the pack mentality of things today, ok I will go there since I mentioned it. In a lot of cases where there is 1 there are 2 or 3. Again give the notion of a fair fight its proper place, the ring or fantasy land. IMH(but at this point semi irritated)O once hands have been layed on me I assume the person who just did so is attempting to kill me therefore as one of my teachers once put it. "If you open the can, you get the whole can"

    ....steps down from soap box....
    ....walks calmly away mumbling.....
     
  8. RandomTriangle

    RandomTriangle Valued Member

    so if someone swings a punch at you, you would hit them with a pool cue?
    or if a guy grabs your shirt you'd take your glass and smash it on his face?\

    it's always been my impression that MOST martial artists would use empty hand techniques first.

    sincerely curious. thank you for your honest answer.

    much respect.

    rt

    btw, i've been in many a fair fight. The issue is how i define a "fair fight." I've pre-emptive struck people. BUT when they go down i don't keep kicking their unconscious body.

    i have a friend who was knocked out, and the guy keep kicking him over and over again while he was unconscious. That.... to me... isn't right.

    OK. in rethinking what i wrote MAYBE i've been in a few "kind" fights?
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2007
  9. angacam

    angacam Mare Est Vita Mea

    If it was already in my hand, Yes. I would not go out of my way to "find a weapon" but if one was present it would get used, as much from reflex as from any consious thing.

    I also never said I would "Kick his uncounsious body" my meaning is that I treat every violent encounter as a life threatening one, and will do what I must, by any means nessesary to put an end to the attack.

    I hate to quote a rocky movie but "If he dies, he dies!" he was the one who set his own fate by setting hands on me or one in my care.

    Oh, and by the way I have not been in a violent encounter for over 8 years and the last one I can recall was when some guy in a bar put his hand on my wife. To awnser the inevitable question, Yes, I would have killed him, he was a nice shade of blue when we were finally seperated, after those who were there with me realized I was serious and interviened. Violence is not the prefered method of daily life. I prefer to avoid and or prevent (hence i have not been in a bar for 6 or 7 years, kind of out grew that stage now) but, there are two things one of my teachers is fond of saying and I believe them both.

    "There are times when words are not enough, at these times action is our only recourse."
    "We are not violent people but, we will fight with those who would fight with us and when we fight, we fight to the end."

    It is the mentality of people like those who assaulted your friend that motivate my belief. If we do not take each encounter with a deadly resolve how are we to know what type of people we are faced with. Will they just beat you up and take your wallet or will they go the extra step and put the boots to you. I prefer not to leave that to my attackers benevolence.
     
  10. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    This needs to be repeated over, and over, and over.

    No matter how many times you practice, no matter how realistic the weapons look, there is nothing which can prepare you for having to look down the barrel of a real gun pointed at your face.
     
  11. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    The thing is, you don't know whether you're being grabbed in preparation for a knifing, or whether the puncher has a knife in his other hand. Things happen fast.

    The simple fact of the matter is, weapons trump empty hand techniques most of the time. That's why they were invented. The focus of MA being on empty hand techniques is largely recent, and if I may say so, artificial. Remember what the word "martial" means. In modern society, our choice of everyday weaponry is limited to basically a cane, maglight, and maybe a can of mace. I'm jealous of those fortunate enough to live in a concealed carry jurisdiction. Right now, someone is training to kick your butt. How you plan to deal with it is one's own business, but remember that someone who accosts you is not going to play fair. That's why it's called fighting, not "prize playing". :)

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  12. RandomTriangle

    RandomTriangle Valued Member

    "The thing is, you don't know whether you're being grabbed in preparation for a knifing, or whether the puncher has a knife in his other hand. Things happen fast."

    EXACTLY what i'm saying. THAT is why i feel your empty hand defenses against punches have to work against knives. Because it happens so fast.

    "The simple fact of the matter is, weapons trump empty hand techniques most of the time. That's why they were invented. "


    EXACTLY what i'm saying. THAT is why i feel your empty hand defenses against punches have to work against knives. Because it happens so fast.

    "How you plan to deal with it is one's own business, but remember that someone who accosts you is not going to play fair. That's why it's called fighting, not "prize playing"."

    I don't assume anyone will "play fair." i'm assuming EVERYONE will be cheating. BUT to assume you'll be able to get to a weapon in time is to train to a POSITIVE situation. i train for the WORST case scenario.

    Maybe people on this forum are fast enough to deploy a weapon when they are "jumped." i might be. but i'm going to train with the assumption that i'm not.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2007
  13. Shiho-Nage

    Shiho-Nage I'm okay to go.

    I am sorry but with this attitude I think you're going to find yourself in some very serious legal trouble sooner or later.

    I have no love for those that prey on others or start violence on a whim but, there is a strong sense of 'appropriate response' in the US legal system. Someone laying hands on you or a loved one constitutes assault but it does not permit you killing them or even seriously injuring them.

    Yes, I believe that the scum of this world deserve all of the nastiness they receive but if you engage in the type of over the top violent response that you've mentioned here in any situation other than one constituting felony assault, attempted kidnapping, attempted rape, etc. you're going to be doing time in prison.

    Just a friendly observation.
     
  14. angacam

    angacam Mare Est Vita Mea

    Well, Sir, the only response I would have to that is so be it.
     
  15. Kew-Do

    Kew-Do Valued Member


    You are right on to what police combat instructors teach, I agree with this post very much.


    Kew-Do
     
  16. RandomTriangle

    RandomTriangle Valued Member

    You believe you should spent time attempting to destroy the weapon bearing arm instead of knocking out the attacker?

    "At this point you may now have the option of extricating yourself or continuing the fight and attempting to control the assailant"

    i don't see how destroying the weapon bearing arm gives you an opportunity to run... unless they were holding the weapon with their foot you have done nothing stop him from attacking you. Sure you could assume that they would be in so much pain that they ball up crying... i'd rather assume the attacker will continue to fight with their other arm.

    Also... control the attacker? The only way i'd ever want to "control" an attacker is through unconsciousness.

    "First and foremost, get off line of the weapon and get close and inside to control it then destroy their ability to use the weapon bearing arm."

    i like "get off line of the weapon and get close to control it." But i destroy their ability to use the weapon bearing arm by trying to knock them unconscious.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2007
  17. Shiho-Nage

    Shiho-Nage I'm okay to go.

    Since your primary objective is gaining control of the weapon you're most likely to do that by controlling the arm holding the weapon. Now that you've got control of that arm, break it off.

    You're welcome to dance around and try to avoid the slashing/firing while you hope to connect well enough to knock them out. Imagine a boxing match where one opponent is only going for a knockout punch while the other one is trying to stab them. Or are you thinking that you'll get them in an RNC while they are stabbing you?

    This sounds like more of the 'an eye gouge won't stop my armbar' thinking. By destroying the weapon bearing arm you not only disarm them but severely damage them.

    Sure, they may decide that they want to continue fighting with their broken/dislocated wrist/elbow/shoulder but they are going to be far less effective and easier to defend against. They won't have their weapon since you've disarmed them and weren't foolish enough to leave it lying around.

    But ultimately since you've got them controlled enough to destroy their weapon bearing arm and disarm them who's to say that you have to immediately let them go so that they can continue to fight? Wrench that broken arm into a submission and then decide if its necessary for you to flee or stay.

    Not really necessary if you have them pinned but, be careful what you do after you've disarmed, crippled and controlled them and they are no longer as much of a threat.
     
  18. RandomTriangle

    RandomTriangle Valued Member

    i wouldn't recommend "dancing around." I recommend "blocking" the stab while simultaneously counterattacking with your other arm. From that point on I’M becoming the attacker. Then controlling the arm that has the knife while continuing to deal with the attacker. Meaning keeping constant pressure on the weapon while striking them in the head (punch or headbutt) or kneeing them in the groin if you need the second arm to control the weapon (the arm that blocks is attempting to grip the wrist, with the arm that give the initial punch can grip the shirt of the same side {a side clinch} while driving the arm holding the knife as far behind their body {while keeping their arm straight}.

    Again i've only ever trained knife with a metal (dull) training blade with lipstick or some other marker on it, and full fight gear (headgear, mouthpiece, boxing gloves, or MMA gloves).

    Of course i'd have to see the technique to understand how you would do so, but while i grapple i'd say i spend most of my time performing strikes.

    Since i practice my right straight more than any other strike (probably) i'd probably have the most success with using that technique.

    i do not know your primary or secondary styles, but unless one of them is a grappling system i would think controlling an attacker would be harder than needed.

    Controlling an attacker isn't preferred (IMO) if it in any way keeps me from running. The longer i stay in a situation the higher the odds rise of something bad happening to me… whether it's their friends showing up, or the attacker finding his "second wind."

    I love the quote," Real Self Protection is hitting someone first and running."

    Also with striking the attacker with the intent on knocking them out, you do not need to knock them out. All you need is to cause enough of a shock to give you enough time to find an improvised weapon, access your weapon, or run.

    I like that you're using impact disarms. In terms of knife (i'm only talking about knives right now) attacks i can't imagine any other type of disarm.

    Finally... is that how you deal with regular punches? Because AGAIN, i can NOT assume i'll EVER see the knife. Not only do i only hear of stories of people not seeing the knife, but the only two people i personally know who were attacked with knives both did not see the knife till it was over.

    If i had a knife i know i wouldn't let the other person see it... i image you wouldn't either.

    How i'm describing my knife defense is the same defense i use against normal punches.

    Since if the attacker has a 2 inch blade steal blade, a push dagger, a 4 inch ice pick... you probably won't see the blade.

    What's interesting is that we are BOTH saying control the weapon arm... i'm just saying THEN attack the person, and you're saying attack the weapon arm.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2007
  19. Shiho-Nage

    Shiho-Nage I'm okay to go.

    I see what you're saying. My personal problem with holding the knife wielding arm and then focusing on their head/body/groin is that they are probably going to be fighting hard to still use their weapon since it has been trapped but not incapacitated. Depending on how well you have it trapped/held they may very well be able to wrest it free and you're back to square one.

    My knife training has been magic marker and practice blades (wooden/rubber) but no headgear/gloves.

    Its always a good idea to 'go with what you know'. If you're straight right has become reflex then by all means use that to great effect.

    My primary style is JJJ with an Aikido background. I do some striking but its used more to stun/distract/setup. A gross generalization of technique would be parry or trap the strike/kick as you enter, strike one or more times to stun/distract then lock/throw and more strikes. For a knife it would slightly modify to ensuring a trap on the weapon bearing arm and then locking it and either break it standing or take them to ground and break the wrist/elbow/shoulder. Never letting go of the arm or taking any pressure off of it.

    I understand but the situation may be one where you can't (or shouldn't) immediately leave. Yes, if they have friends there controlling the person on the ground is a bad idea as you'll get a boot or two to the head. But in my scenario you've destroyed the person's arm, taken their weapon and now have a weapon to face the other assailant(s).

    I can't either. Trying to pry a knife out of a fully functioning hand/arm is a very bad idea.

    I agree on the striking need only be for stunning. If you can parry their weapon hand and stun them with a strike long enough to get away (if that's possible) then yes, do it. You've just successfully extricated yourself from a very bad situation with little harm to either party. That's a win/win.

    Again, as a gross generalization on technique against a punch. It generally would entail parrying/trapping the strike, entering and striking. Then if you have the striking arm trapped locking and/or throwing them with it (or in conjunction with it).

    To be honest I can't say that my reaction against every strike would be the same if I knew it were weapon bearing or not. But the majority of my responses to strikes is to initially parry and trap the striking arm followed by a throw or lock. But if the person is doing quick thrusts/jabs than that might not be viable. It really depends on the type of strike.

    Actually, we're both saying attack the person I'm just focusing on the arm (until its non-functioning) while you are choosing to focus on the rest of them.

    Again, if what you described is what you have practiced to the point of it becoming reflex and you find it effective I am not trying to tell you do something else. My response in this thread was my personal point of view and how I train and would (in theory) respond to a knife attack. I'd really want to make sure that even if my follow up techniques missed or were ineffective the first thing I'd done was remove the weapon and severely damaged them so that they are less likely to continue aggression. And if they did, that they are doing so at a big deficit.

    Thanks for you point of view.
     
  20. RandomTriangle

    RandomTriangle Valued Member

    Fair enough. After reading you go into more detail i have better idea of what you meant.

    I know you weren't saying "i was wrong" just as i didn't mean to come off like "that won't work." IMO discussions about technique are along the lines of "this angle might be more productive." Obviously without visual aids it is difficult.

    But thank you for taking the time to explain things further.

    Much Respect,
    RT

    BTW, i would like to add one thing. i agree that "holding the knife wielding arm and then focusing on their head/body/groin is that they are probably going to be fighting hard to still use (it)." That is why i stress engraining into your muscle memory simultaneous counter-attacks with your initial block.

    Think of it as an "out block" with one arm while giving a "right cross" with the other. Extending BOTH attacks at the same time. Obviously i'm not describing the mechanics properly, but when executed you are striking your opponent at the moment they expect to strike you... and from that moment on you are not stopping the assault.

    It is also how we try to get around a "knife fighter" who tries to fake you out. Since we are NOT trying to follow their arm/ control their arm before striking them. They might fake us out with a "2 beat" attack (faking one direction, but then going a second) BUT we are attacking with our right straight on the FIRST beat.

    When we train knife attacks we give the attackers SPECIFIC directions to perform "rage" attacks. We tell them to try to stab 10+ times. BUT when you give the initial simultaneous counter attack (With a boxing glove/head gear/ mouth piece) EVEN at 10% power, the knife user "stutters" for a second.

    I wish i had video that i could upload: cry:

    The simultaneous counter attack makes all the difference in the world. The "block" is actually a strike itself. We try to go "wrist to wrist" while maintaining a 90% angle in the arm that we are using to block. We make a straight line, wrist to wrist, and rotate our arm into the arm that is attacking us, as hard as we can. ALSO the counter attack actually STRENGTHENS the "block."

    Ok. Enough rambling, i could go on forever and not provide an accurate enough description.

    All i want you to know is that in the "FIRST beat" we are "blocking" AND giving our first strike... in the "second beat" we're grabbing the wrist AND simultaneous striking again. In the 3rd-30th beats we continuing to control the weapon while striking.

    i COMPLETELY agree that if you do not simultaneous counter attack with the first block, controlling the arm is ALMOST impossible.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2007

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