knife and gun defense

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Kenpo_Iz_Active, Feb 19, 2007.

  1. Kenpo_Iz_Active

    Kenpo_Iz_Active Greek Warrior-not 300

    Do you think it is realistically possible to defend against a knife/gun?
    what are the real-life chances of actually defending against a knife/gun, if you think its possible.

    I found this site that talks about defending againsta knife.

    I personally think that, if confronted with a gun within a few inches of you, you can grab his wrist or something to that effect to disarm him.
  2. Towely

    Towely Valued Member

    If he is trained with a gun and stays away from you then you are pretty much toast. I guess you could try and run or submit and pray he doesn't shoot.

    If he is a regular gang banger as long as you stand directly in front of him he's not going to be able to hit you..:D In that case i'd probably just run or disarm him if he was close enough.

    If someone attacks with a knife the best option is to run away obviously but I do think that if someone with no MA training or experience goes up with a knife against someone with training, the guy with the knife will get his ass kicked a majority of the time.
  3. Burnsey

    Burnsey Armchair liberal

    I don't recall exactly but was there not some research done by the NYPD on the safe use of guns against knife wielding asiliants. In the end they found out that to be completely safe there had to be a distance of over 21 feet between the two people. I don't remeber where I got this from (could have been someone else on MAP) but if im talking rubbish correct me as I know there are a few policemen and ex-policemen on MAP.
  4. medi

    medi Sadly Passed Away - RIP

    Of course it's possible. It's just hard, and scary. And made harder because it's so scary.

    The best option would be give up if at all possible.
  5. Kew-Do

    Kew-Do Valued Member

    You are correct! Additionally that is what they teach in police academys.

    In some of the seminars I have provided for officers, they have their handgun loaded with "simunition" leaves a white powder mark on the person who is shot. We practice traffic stops where the driver gets out of his car. There is a 8 foot distance between both participants in the roll play. We normally can slice an officer 8 times before they can pull their duty weapon. That is the reason if an officer feels that there is a possiblity of danger, they pull their weapon to a combat ready position.

  6. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Perhaps, but the MAist is probably still going to get cut. Five minutes of training with a knife is enough to mess up a lot of intermediate MAists. If someone is really determined to kill you, and you've never prepared for that for that level of agression, you're in for a rude awakening.

    Best regards,

  7. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    Well over half the time you'll be shot before you can touch him. The statistics that Kew Do was elaborating on involve non-readied weapons. An already deployed weapon is a whole different ballgame. To stop someone from shooting you, you must be able to reach out and make forceful contact, to shoot you requires moving a finger a fraction of an inch. The differences between long and short-range firearm encounters are powder burns and accuracy needed. At 25 yards, someone who has never fired a weapon before has a good chance of missing you entirely; any hits will most likely be dumb luck. That same person at 6 ft probably won't miss.

    When working against a weapon escape is the best alternative, if you feel that they are going to kill you no matter what, then fighting back may be your only hope; if not, give them what they want. The one key factor for surviving or having a chance at surviving is surprise, wait for your moment and catch them while distracted if the weapon is already deployed. If you can catch them as they are about to draw the weapon, even better, better yet, be aware and avoid the situation altogether.
  8. Kenpo_Iz_Active

    Kenpo_Iz_Active Greek Warrior-not 300

    O.k., so disarming knives/guns are close to impossible. The next best thing, i believe, is to pay extra-close attention to the environment. And if possible, avoid such environments all together. Even then, you should always be prepared.

    Also, what about using non-lethal weapons. How useful are they? Take for instance, a cane.
  9. Tartovski

    Tartovski Valued Member

    However, if the person is 2ft away from you, it's nigh on impossible for them to pull a trigger/stab you before you move. The nerve impulses don't fire that fast. try a test with a mate: get them to hold you up at Gun/Knife point. Tell them to stab/pull the trigger as soon you move. Then at a random point, move to the side and grab the weapon arm. You will beat them 9times out of 10. Admittadly, you are then in a grabbling situation with a weapon... heh ho!
  10. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    I have, under NRA certified instructors; even the instructors were often unsuccessful on average it was about 50/50 and that's people with one to two years training vs. attackers with similar training time. I'd say it's pretty safe to assume someone with less training would have done worse. The one key difference between facing a knife and a gun that I found was that having your hands raised (the traditional stick em up position) was fine for knives but significantly reduced the chance of success against a firearm. It went from one out of two to one out of five attempts successful. It's harder to see movement coming off the hips then it is at shoulder level and that small change makes a big difference.
  11. JHughes

    JHughes New Member

    Knife/gun? guns are diferent from a gun.

    also if i was to be confronted with a gun i wouldn't grab it because if you did the person with gun automaticly gueses what your going to do and the chances are they'll pull the trigger. try stepping in and around the gun for starters.
  12. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Most untrained people ie. most people absolutly crap themselves when faced with a gun, at any distance. It's easier to disarm at close range, but a whole lot scarier. Unless you are a police officer or ex-combatant, give up whatever they want. Chances are you would anyway.
  13. angacam

    angacam Mare Est Vita Mea

    I would not say next to impossible but like anything else this requires a lot of training. Live training. Intense training. Guns in particular, most schools that teach gun defense never tell the students about things like muzzle flash or the very load bang when the gun goes off. If you are successfull at getting off line before it goes off do you know the results of a pistol being discharged a few inches from your face or ear? It is unpleasant to say the least. Now with knives you also MUST accept the fact that if you attempt a dissarm you will get cut. Another thing a lot of schools do not discuss are the actual physical affects of the stress of this type of encounter. Tunnel vision is one of the worst. Never ever look directly at the weapon espesially a gun that barrel ends up looking like a cannon.

    Personally, I believe I could disarm both knife or gun. That said If put in the situation I would still give over my wallet, car keys, or any other material posession to prevent the need for a risky disarm. If I felt the thug was not going to be satisfied I would do what was needed but only if I felt there was no other option.

    Oh, and to be clear if I had to act and was successfull said thug would be face down and not get up ever again and yes, I would then go home.
  14. angacam

    angacam Mare Est Vita Mea

    A cane would be extremly usefull against a knife.
    Against a gun it would all come down to you getting off line before you were shot and striking hard enough to disarm. Again lots of intense training.
  15. Keikai-Tsutsumi

    Keikai-Tsutsumi New Member

    Also very good against a knife is a short stick. It has more targets than a knife. Ever been hit on the knuckles or and boney part of your body by a well focused hit from a stick? A straight thrust from a stick can be quite painful, particuarly in the throat.
  16. angacam

    angacam Mare Est Vita Mea

    Yep those sticks can really sting. Took a nice one duing a demo on the outside of my wrist just above the little bone at the wrist joint. Had a lump and was tender to the touch for almost 3 months :cry: . Put me out of the action quick. Oh, and I was attacking with a knife in the other hand, my Nage struck the closest hand, I dropped the knife and dropped to my knees, forgot all about attacking.
    You can use a cane just like the small stick.
  17. SifuJason

    SifuJason Valued Member

    Learning defense against weapons is very much possible, as some people have pointed out. Kew-Do and others have pointed out some of the issues involved in gun defense (and I'd also like to add putting your hand in front of a cocked hammer is always a good idea, assuming the gun has one), so I'll talk a little about knives.

    For one, it takes a lot of training, and in any knife fight, you must assume you are going to get cut. The objective is to make the cuts non-lethal, and to take out the assailant as fast as possible. Many arts teach knife counters, but most of them in all honestly will likely get you killed. The best skills I have learned have come from Escrima/Kail/Arni for knife and stick attack and defense.

    Some quick pointers:

    1) Keep your arteries protected at all times, including the ones on your wrist. Analyze how you are grabbing the assailant's hand when trying to disarm/block and see if your wrist would be cut by a sudden retraction of the hand. If so, you'd be dead and your counter is a bad one.

    2) Grab the thumb-bed of the attacking hand. It allows for the easiest disarms, and won't allow them to break free of the grab easily.
  18. bcullen

    bcullen They are all perfect.

    I don't know if I'd say it's a good idea, but then it's better then getting shot. The problem is that its a small target that it is further away from you in a situation where shaving a thousandth of a second means the difference between life and death. If you are reaching to stop the hammer you are not getting the weapon pointed away from you, which is the most important thing.

    This also requires a weapon with an external hammer like revolvers or the model 1911 Colt.

    The other downside is that it's going to hurt, a lot. There's a good deal of force behind those hammers, if you are lucky and get your hand in deep it will only pinch but if you only manage to get a finger or the webbing in there... :eek:
  19. RandomTriangle

    RandomTriangle Valued Member

    There are too many points i would like to make to be able to go into detail at this time (limited time right now).

    As i've stated before i believe it is imperative that your defenses against punches "work" against knifes. This of it this way... if YOU were going to stab someone would you let them see the knife? No. God forbid they use a two inch blade, or a black steal blade, or an ice pick, or it's night, or it's raining, or you've had a drink, or etc...

    A city police officer used to train Krav Maga with me. One night he was on duty, standing on a corner with his partner. A guy walks up, pauses in front of him, then takes a swing. Joe said he was shocked but reacted. Krav maga teaches to perform a simultaneous counter punch with an "attacking block" with the hand closest to the punch. (There is more to it than that but i'm not going to be able to describe it all right now). Joe said he did not make his counter attack simultaneous (he was surprised) BUT did counter attack the second after he blocked.

    The guy went down, Joe's partner and he jumped on the guy. As they were putting the guy in handcuffs Joe said his heart "dropped." The attacker had a four inch ice pick. Joe didn't see it. No excuse, he just didn't see it.

    What i like about striking in knife defenses (in systems that teach to strike) is that THAT'S what the students of these systems practice. All day they are learning to throw a good cross. And if your best punch isn't going to be able to shock an attack into dropping their weapon, or stunning them enough to give you time to run or find an improvised weapon, what is?

    The moment a person is least likely to expect to get hit is the moment they expect their attack to land on you. Developing the proper mindset with knife defenses is extremely difficult. i like the mindset of "i don't care WTF happens i'm going to smash your face" because no block will ever stop knife attack. ONLY counter-attacks can do that.

    If you read what i posted in "articles" under knife basics you'll get a better idea of how i view knife training has to happen. It is important to get people capable of going from HOW they are 99% of their day (passive, relaxed) to ON (murder murder, kill kill) in the shortest period of time. Teaching people to become indignity... like "how dare you F'in THINK of ATTEMPTING to attack me!?!?!?!"

    Lets be realistic... we have to assume worst case scenario. So let’s assume the attack STARTS with the defender getting stabbed. The defender can either lay down dead, or with his/her dying breathe rip the head of his/her attack and run to the hospital on foot. Which mindset do you want your students to have?

    BTW, i really haven't discussed ""Techniques" of defending against knives.... i can if you want, but i think everyone can agree that techniques are secondary to mindset.
  20. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I remember seeing a video of someone shooting a pistol at his lawyer outside a courtroom (I think he was annoyed at a verdict or something).
    He was approximately 6-10 feet away (and sometimes closer).
    He shot about 6 times and the lawyer survived.
    The lawyer ran, dodged and hid behind a tree.
    A gun attack can be survived.
    The same with knives. People survive knife attacks every day of the week.
    By the same token one stray shot can kill and one knife lunge can hit an artery and do the same.
    There's no hard and fast rules.
    Keep moving, keep attacking and leg it when you get the chance.
    Anything else is down to luck.

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