Kime

Discussion in 'Karate' started by cragnacker, Oct 29, 2003.

  1. cragnacker

    cragnacker New Member

    Being a new member, I was reading through some past threads (specifically, the leaving the hands out thread) and noticed the reference to kime. I see this word used alot, but it looks to me as if the definition is not always consistent from one user to another. I'd like to hear your definition and understanding of the concept of kime.
     
  2. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Kime, as far as I've been taught, is the ability to execute a technique in a relaxed manner and then tense at the moment of contact, and then relax again.

    So your only tensed at the point of contact, and relaxed the rest of the time to increase the speed/power of a technique.

    Colin
     
  3. kerling

    kerling Hidden haito style

    what Colin said +

    With kime you should compress the air in your lungs and tighten your stommac side and back muscles at the same time so if you get hit while doing the technique you should less vulnerable. The effect of a good kime is like a shaken soda can, it appears to be hard and you are not likely to damage the can (bend it).

    Impact to the torso while doing kime should dispence the energy to the surronding muscles rather than to your internal organs. Sort of like a kevlar does for a bullet.

    Regards Kerling
     
  4. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I was first taught as freeform described, but with the slight difference that the 'kime' is just the moment of tension at the moment of impact. The relaxation before and afterwards are of course equally important.

    I also think there can be different kinds of kime.

    Mike
     
  5. cragnacker

    cragnacker New Member

    Kerling, it sounds like you are describing kiai. Mike, would you explain your theory on the different kinds of kime?
     
  6. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    As far as the kiai and kime bit of your question goes, I'd say they are completely intertwined.

    As for my theories on kime I wouldn't necessarily say they were my own, just poached from other people.

    First off, the usual kime. Generally people consider that this should occur over a very short space of time, ie. the impact phase of a strike. Typically however, I see people in many dojos extending the kime period unncessarily and to the detriment of their punches. Most significantly, they extend the accompanying kiai, until it becomes some long drawn out Bruce Lee style impression of a chicken in distress. When using kiai to augment/initiate kime surely it should be short and sharp, just like the kime.

    However, there is a way to do an extended kime (and kiai) that is quite valid in my opinion. This brings us back to the thread in which people were wondering why punches are left extended in kata. My answer was basically that you want to keep projecting your energy in a specific direction for more than just a brief moment of impact, eg. during a throw. Well you can do the same thing with a strike. In chinese arts I believe that is known as striking with 'heavy hands'. Lets say I grab your hair with one hand and pull your head down towards my hip (bringing in yet another thread about why we should pull the hands to the hips) and strike your neck with my other forearm. As I have secured your head in place I can transfer more energy into your neck by sticking to the neck with my forearm and pushing (actually with a feeling of cutting through) into it. This naturally takes more time and so works best with a longer kime and kiai.

    Make sense?

    Mike
     
  7. cragnacker

    cragnacker New Member

     
  8. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Whilst I might be inclined to agree with you up to a point, I can't help being reminded of the difference between Wado Ryu and Shotokan. At least in the early stages of training the kime used in Wado is of shorter duration than that in Shotokan, but plenty of Shotokan people certainly have kime. I agree though that sometimes it is extended so far that it clearly becomes a total lack of kime.

    I'm not entirely certain that I understand how you are defining 'transferring' and 'applying' here, but I can assure you that this method does transfer energy. The heavy hands way of hitting avoids using antagonistic muscles to stop the blow (which can create a false impression of kime and rob the blow of some of its power). To use your own analogy, think of it as a laser pulse followed by another laser pulse.

    But whether you define this as kime or not I think is partly a matter of semantics. What's really important is not what we call the two methods, but that we understand the differences between them at an experiental as well as an intellectual level.

    Mike
     
  9. cragnacker

    cragnacker New Member

    When I talk about transfer and apply, I am talking about involement in the technique. I am talking about "net force", the "amount of effect" on the target, in relation and compared to the "amount of effort" that is put into the technique. I think a technique that exemplifies kime has a very low ratio of effort to effect.
    You are right, it is not important, as long as the concept is understood. My problem with this is that I see many people that obviously think of kime as tension, then will read some old writings that refer to kime, and come away with a misinterpretation of the intent of the writer. This new understanding then makes it's way into discussions and possibly teachings. Thanks for the input Mike I have enjoyed your comments, although I am disappointed that more people have not responded, as I think this is possibly the most important principle that there is, as far as striking techniques in the martial arts.
     
  10. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    An interesting definition, I like it. I hadn't of it like that before. Rather, I've thought about it in terms of maximum (appropriate) effort put in. But when I think about it my own kime doesn't really resemble the high tension of say a typical Shotokan kime. On the contrary, I strive to produce the kind of whipping action talked about in some Okinawan systems, which I suppose is really about expending less energy for greater effect. Of course, that's not a new concept to me but I hadn't thought of kime in these terms I must admit. Thanks for the insight.

    I agree, kime is of fundamental importance. I still feel I have much to learn in this area.

    Mike
     
  11. kerling

    kerling Hidden haito style

    cragnacker

    kime an kiai are related like father and son I would say.

    While doing kiai you should do kime.

    If you say "hai" in your kiai while doing kime it should sound like you are on the toilet. The pitch of the voice should affected by the kime.

    But kime should not last long. Not like our dear Bruce Lee with people sliding of his fist og Van Damme with yokogeri up in the air turning to the side.

    You can not kime someone to death.

    But the whipping action talked about in some okinawa system does not allways replace the locking in kime. The whipping action can be applied with kime. A more modern word for it is often used is vibration. You should vibrate your hib in order to generate power from them but en with a kime afterwards.

    Regards Kerling

    ps. English is not my native languaqe so bear with me.
     
  12. cragnacker

    cragnacker New Member

    Kerling, you are doing great with the English. I am concerned about the Japanese though, I think you are thinking of "tension" when using the word "kime". Tension is an ingredient of kime, but so is the relaxation that precedes, and follows that tension. Just like the notes (tension) of a song (kime) don't work without the spaces (relaxation) in between them. Don't get me wrong, I think we are more in agreement than not, I just think there is a very common misunderstanding of the concept of kime as being tension instead of focus.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2003
  13. kerling

    kerling Hidden haito style

    cragnacker

    Ok with tension and kime beeing not the same thing I agree. Before the kime you should relax as much off your body as you can. Just in the end you should use tension. So we are in agreement, But you need tension in order to focus the technique and its only a short tension(in time). But then again it might be my limitation in the english languaqe wich make me use wrong words.

    Regards Kerling
     

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