Kicks in Self defence

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Judderman, Jul 18, 2004.

  1. cybermonk

    cybermonk New Member

    Adopt a stable stance and let them impale in your elbow, should be pretty straight forward and you shouldnt fly off.
     
  2. Scarlet Mist

    Scarlet Mist Banned Banned

    Sidekicks are great charge stoppers, I think, but everyone should be trained in the art of sidestepping, that's what you should do when charged at. Sidestep and immediately counter, just like in sparring. He charges, you move out of the way and ram your foot into his knee (it doesn't matter what kick you use) ... game over.

    As for high kicking, there is no way if I'm attacked I'm gonna walk up to someone and lead off with a kick to the face - that's how you get swept of your feet and onto your ass - and then you get the crap pounded out of you. Instead, you use your kicks, both high and low, in combination with hand strikes. If your opponents hands are busily tied up with yours he can't grab your kick, can he?

    Rich, that video was awesome :cool:
    But that spinning hook kick (or wheel kick .. it wasn't clear what it was) was a bad example ... it was slow, really slow.
    The fact still remains however, that spinning kicks are a bad idea in SD, unless you catch someone totally by surprise.
     
  3. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Think about that analogy a minute. Both cars get demolished, right? So how does that translate into kicking an opponent who's charging toward you?

    You're going to take a lot of that energy yourself and quite likely end up taking a pratfall. I'm with aikiwolfie on this one. Get out of the way first. Kick second.

    I expect someone will mention sidekicking a rushing opponent in the knee. Which would be more analogous to a car and a moped colliding. But the precision required to hit a rushing opponent right in the knee with enough force to disable the knee is a rare skill indeed.

    Stuart
     
  4. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Thank you for pointing that out Stuart. The ol' kick to the knee thing is a pet peeve of mine. It's possible but not too probable against most opponents. And there are way to many people who have based their self defense concepts around that move.

    Ok, rant over.

    - Matt
     
  5. JohnnyX

    JohnnyX Map Addict

    Ribs!

    Unless you have been kicked in the ribs, you will always under-rate this target.

    A good kick to the ribs will end it there and then.

    There are many options - front kick, side kick, roundhouse, back kick.

    A kick to the groin might not - I have heard of people that are going out looking for trouble to wear a groin guard or something like. Rarely do they wear body armour.

    Any comments.
     
  6. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Ribs are a great target, but again I think they're really difficult to hit correctly on a moving target. If you can settle the person and then tag them I think you'll be in good shape.

    I'm also not sure if I buy into a roundhouse as being the most effective rib kick. Especially if the person is in motion or maintaining a good boxing guard. If you can score a good ball of the foot roundhouse to the ribs from that position you might have something. But the killer hit would be applied against the side of the body which means that your opponent would have to be 90 degrees to you in order to make the round house really work.

    - Matt
     
  7. snailfist

    snailfist Valued Member

    My JJJ style doesn't place a lot of emphasis on kicks. Kicking above waist height is considered a cardinal sin.
    There is one exception i can think of, defending against a front strangle. We push ourselves off their elbows, stepping back and trapping their arms, slide down their arms to grab their wrists, then open them up to a kick to the ribs or sternum by pulling their arms apart.

    People's take on this:
    A lot of JJJ knife defenses rely on a fair degree of commitment from the aggressor. An outsretchetched leg is longer than the average knife in the average arm. Could a kick be used to punish any hesitation on the knife attacker's part that would render said JJ defenses ineffective? (I.e he has a choice- get kicked in the vitals or fall through your open door into your wristlock).

    Do people feel this would work?
     
  8. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    It's great that you identified that JJJ knife defenses rely on that commitment. From what I've seen that's a crucial thing and something people don't talk about enough.

    As far as the question about using a kick to pester, it's possible but not necessarily practical. Monkey Kung Fu uses the idea of pestering to get people to overcommit to techniques, so the idea of using a kick to tick someone off is sound. However using a kick in a knife fight isn't the most sound idea. While the kick does afford you more reach, you risk having you leg slashed or stabbed. You also risk having the person attack you while you don't have a stable base. For that reason a lot of blade based arts really de-emphasize kicking.

    If you are going to kick you should keep it on a very low line.

    - Matt
     
  9. alex_000

    alex_000 You talking to me?

    You would be demolished if you hit head to head to the guy who rushes towards you. But you dont. ITs feet vs solar plexus. And about the balance thing...

    When you kick properly you generate a lot of power and maintain good balance and stability for a split second and is very , very dificult to fall backwards (It never ever happened to me even if i kick trees for practice where all the power comes back to you cause the tree doesnt
    't move). When you run towards someone and get kicked in the solar or stomack you fold. And you fold instantly if the hit is correct. So in the above case the defender will hit and the attacker will fold . Anyway I'm not so mutch into the technical details I've just given and taken a few of those kicks in sparring and when you move towards the target the pain is 2xas mutch (and the quantity of food you throw up).

    Dodge and kick works two (offcourse), but manipulating your opponents power is one of the reasons they're called martial ARTS and is very difficult.

    Personaly I more into throw/trip someone whos running towards me but saying that no kick will stop the attacker , that is wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2004
  10. JohnnyX

    JohnnyX Map Addict

    I'm impressed with your English! :cool:
     
  11. alex_000

    alex_000 You talking to me?

    Come on .. dont make fun of me , I'm sencitive :p ....
     
  12. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Actually there is a big difference when you kick someone in the stomach vs the solarplex and in the case of a charging opponent one is more optimal than the other.

    Kicking someone in the stomach who is charging you is far less optimal for the reasons you listed: the fold. Basically they'll fold from the spine and if your retaction isn't good may trap or isolate you leg in the process. They'll also be continuing towards you due to their momentum. So you potentially end up with a poorly positioned leg recovery vs someone who's momentum is still carrying them forward. So while you might have knocked them for a loop, they are still on top of you.

    With the solar plex they won't fold over. At least not initally. And that makes it the more optimal technqiues. The reason for the lack of fold over is that you're hitting them just above their center of mass (I hope I'm using the right phrase here). You fold at the center. Ove above it, or below it the folding effect lessens. By striking above the center of mass you also force the body backwards as it can't fold to dissipate the attack. For this reason LEO's are trained to shoot to the center of the frame in order to stop a charging attacker. So stiking the solar plexus prevents the leg from being trapped and should, if you hit with any force, stop (or at least greatly reduce) the forward progress of the attacker. Thus it's the more preferrable technique.

    - Matt
     
  13. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Well, the "demolished" bit was part of your car crash analogy. I'm talking about getting knocked over while you're kicking.

    Yes. When you kick properly. But how often have you kicked properly in this sort of situation? (I haven't personally.)

    That's precisely my point. The tree doesn't move. So your range, timing, and retraction are going to be perfect every time. Very different situation from someone actively charging in on you.

    Again, if the hit is correct. But considering the degradation of skills and the general chaos of the real event, I personally wouldn't want to bank on that perfectly timed shot. I'd rather get into a good position and then counter.

    Besides, if we're talking about sparring (which you seem to be) bear in mind that there tends to be a tacit understanding in sparring regarding range and technique. Especially within one style. When an opponent closes on you in sparring, are they really charging you? Or just closing distance to throw something very similar to what you're doing?

    Yes. Extremely difficult. So much so, in fact, that I personally wouldn't advocate it in self defense. Your mileage may vary.

    Bet you a shiny gold coin you can't show me where I said it can't work. I just wouldn't advocate it.


    Stuart
     
  14. alex_000

    alex_000 You talking to me?

    Firstly I was refearing to this

    I want my golden coin because you dishonoured me. I will sent you my address via pm :D :D

    As for the other comments. Yes You have to kick properly . Yes you have to be good enough to kick properly in thet situation. Being able to do it wasn't the discussion. The discusion was if it can be done. (I can do it. That kick is one of my favorites :) but that even isnt the question) . About the tree thing you didnt undertsand what i meant. If you run towards a tree and collide you'll bounce back because the tree isnt moving and the energy transfers back to you (surely you've seen it in all those funy clips on the net or whatever). If i kick it i'll not move an inch , because i have good balance and i can control the powed that comes back. If i didn't the kick wouldn't be right. Its as close as it gets to a guy running towards you so i stated it as an example Anyway i dont know how much of kicking there is in your style and what kind of philosophy in the way you kick. if there was more maybe you would undestand what i meant.

    If we take the chaos of a situation in mind i can say you will be petrified and he'll beat the crap out of you, but thats not the topic, is it?

    I'f you just wouldn't advocate it. Then we dont dissagree on anything. I wouldnt advocate it either. If someone knows how to do it he wont need my opinion or yours ...

    I agree but im a fan of good retaction :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2004
  15. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Ah. Well, you're going to have to take aikiwolfie to collections for that one mate. Not me.

    It's a question about self defense. I'd say the ability to actually do it (reliably) is paramount.

    I did understand what you meant. But my point is that, before you kicked the tree, you set up at your perfect range. Right? Now, take a step or two closer toward the tree and try it again. Perfectly balanced?

    So when you're NOT at your ideal range, the balance of the kick is jeopardized. And given that your ideal range is going to last for a fraction of a second when someone's charging in, I don't like those odds.

    Bear in mind that the question was asked in a self defense forum. To me, that meant "maneuvers that are high percentage for various people." Not "things that Alex could do if Alex were attacked." And I don't think that most people have the timing and aim to pull off what you're suggesting. If you do, stellar. I'm not sure that I do, so I'm very reticent about suggesting it to anyone else.

    I doubt it. I studied taekwondo exclusively for five years. And kickboxing after that. It's not that I don't understand kicking. (I don't know everything, but I get the general idea.)

    Um, yes it is. It's a self defense forum. I'd say that the inherent chaos (degradation of all but gross motor skills, etc.) is very much the topic.

    I can live with that. If you want to keep discussing this for discussion's sake (this being a forum and all) I'd be happy to do so. But really, I think you've just cornered the last word on the subject. Your call. :)


    Stuart
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2004
  16. alex_000

    alex_000 You talking to me?

    LOL there was no war friend (about the truce comment). Just two different opinions. It happens All the time :) . I dont think there is a reason to keep disquising it we both said our opinions on the subject.

    But i must say two more things .

    Self defence is different for people people as opinions. I believe that if you kick someone who runs towards you in the solar is good self defence because i gurantee the fight will end there. The fact that we are in self defence forum doesnt mean I not entiled to believe that.

    If you studied TWD for 5 years you obviously know about kicks . You must be a qute a good kicker (maybe better than me) . I do Kick boxing about 6 years now ..

    But i must say i'm quite surprised that someone who studied TWD would think range , and timing as serious problems. Isn't that like like dising the hole art?
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2004
  17. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    You're referring to my use of the word "truce" I'm guessing, which I edited out because you're right. Poor word choice. :)

    No. No it doesn't. And I'm guessing that neither of us are self defense "experts." So I'm not suggesting that your opinion is less valid than mine. At the same time, this forum wouldn't be much use if we didn't at least try to back up our ideas.

    I've been studying kicking for about 19 years. "Quite a good kicker"? Honestly, I don't know. Better than some. Worse than others. What can I tell ya. I've seen guys with really sorry kicks. And I've seen a muay thai fighter who could kick an 80-lb. heavy bag so it swung horizontal each time. I'm somewhere in between. (One of Khun Kao's guys, come to think of it.)

    When I studied only taekwondo, I would've agreed with you. But after several years in arnis, kickboxing, and so on, I've sparred too many people who could close the distance quickly and get within straight kicking range. Not necessarily trained grapplers either (though some of them are).

    My thinking is position first, hit second. So if someone's charging, I'm going to want to get off of that line first. And then drive a round kick through his knee second (ideally). If the round kick doesn't come off, at least I'm not in his path.


    Stuart
     
  18. alex_000

    alex_000 You talking to me?

    I'm not an expert in anything about MA.

    I know what you mean .

    Nothing wrong with that

    Dont forget i dont recomend the use of that kick either as my first recomandation, it can be too risky, i just dont accept that it doesnt work. We didn't disargree on if its what we would use , but in if you can kick someone who runs to you without fallin back.

    its good to talk to nice people :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2004
  19. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Good point. Neither of us are recommending it. Nor are we saying it's impossible.

    Likewise mate. :)
     
  20. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    -I tried to add my two cents worth to this topic yesterday, but got bumped from the 'net. Here's hoping I can give some value before that happens this time.
    -Kicking can be an effective counter against full speed charges, if the kicker's skill and strategy is up to par. First, I would recommend only using linear kicks in such a siuation. Circular or semi-circular kicks would not be in the powerline and therefore would require much greater accuracy and timing to use as a stop kick in this situation. If I were going to choose a kick for this task, I would choose a side kick. However, to make this work, you must habitually follow three criteria in the practice or use of this kick. 1) You must point the heel of the base foot the direction of the kick. This provides both the most solid base possible and allows you to thrust with the base leg. It also opens your hips for maximum power. 2) You must have an explosive and solid chamber, lock out and recoil on your kick. 3) You must deliver your kicks in the powerline, otherwise your body will fold and your balance will break down under the impact.
    -Once you have developed your kick with the proper mechanics, I will share a drill that can take you to the next level and help anyone willing to put in the training to be able to pull off this tactic with a very high rate of success (unfortunately no tech. or strategy is 100% foolproof). You have the defender in the centerwith 4-5 attackers holding a heavy kicking shield. You begin gradually and build up with experience and greater skill. Obviously, safety must come first. The opponents (one at a time) will begin with a light charge and the defender will stop hit with a side kick. As the defender gains both competence and confidence, the speed and ferocity of the charge are raised. This may take several reps to really get the feel for this and work your way up to this. The defender will NEVER become competent at this if they don't get the mechanics of their kicks down first. The struggles that they will have on the first few tries will quiet down the egotistical and ignorant, who believe that without doing drills like this, that their kicking skills are already up to the task.
    -Once the defender both competence and confidence at this, you can take it up a notch or two. Have the attacker surround the defender and come in on signals from the instructor. This way the defender must be able to set and fire from different angles and be spontaneous and adaptable in his/her response. You can further enhance the drill by adding adrenal stress training into the mix. If you really want to become competent with such a tactic, this can be a fun and eye opening drill (But, it looks so much easier in the movies).
    -Finally, I would personally be relunctant to use this tactic in an actual self defense situation. First, I prefer to keep my responses simple and safe even when I am confident in my own abilities. More importantly though, with an attackers momentum and possible erratic actions, I would be concerned of dong excessive damage to my attacker. I would rather choose a response that I have more control of the level of damage that I inflict. I will do whatever is neccesary to protect myself or someone I care about, but I would rather choose options that are less damaging if I can.


    -P.S.-Whether you plan on applying this tactic for self defense or not, the drill I laid out is a great way to enhance your overall kicking effectiveness. It will also VERY quickly point out any faults within your kicks, so be sure to start off fairly slowly and then build up to a higher level. If your kicks are good enough, then you will be ready to progress pretty quickly, if not you know what needs more practice and refinement. Even if you are already an effective and awesome kicker, the first few times you take a full speed charge from different angles, espescially under adrenal stress, you will likely be grateful that those first few times were in a training enviroment and not on the street.

    -PPS- If you try this drill, please do it under competent instruction/ supervision and only practice this on a well padded floor or on mats.
     

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