I thought you had good points, but since I was specifically talking about the kick that Bigmikey was describing, that was the same mechanics as a Muay Thai kick. You were talking about a different kick that recoils back to a "chamber". I wasn't talking about that type of kicking. So to me I was right on and you were out of context. As for the downward round kick hitting with the instep, the primary powerline is the shin across the jawline. The instep can hit the back of the head, but that is a result of the angle of attack with what you called a wrap around. That is exactly what happens in Muay Thai when the hips are rotated to get the downward round kick angle. The kick is the same in TKD according to the video I used as an example. I was a judge at a Muay Thai event a few months ago. One of the knockouts was using a kick like that but the kick hit earlier because the opponent moved a little into it and the shin hit across the jawline for a KO, but the instep could have wrapped around and hit the back of the head. The power line was along the shin, either way. IMHO.
Were you kicking passed the target like your new way of kicking or was it a kick that recoiled back to a chamber?
R.W. I hope I didnt come across as condescending in my last post. I re-read it and fear it MIGHT be taken that way if read wrong. We've all done such a great job of discussing this and your insights are quite intelligent I'd hate to blow it by accidentally coming off as a nob.
the heavy bag I always kick to kill, lol. Yes, through the target, aiming at the farside, not the near side. I can blast that bad boy quite literally as hard as I can with no ill-effects to my instep at all. The time I blasted an elbow I was kicking hard because I expected my target to be further away when all of a sudden his elbow popped on.... which I felt was rather rude, lol. I kicked steel I-beam support pole once on a drunken dare and blasted that puppy pretty hard, though not as hard as I kick the heavy bag as I was drunk, not stupid - thank GOD.
Not at all. I'm the one the folks are disagreeing with anyway. I'm big on mind, body, spirit all working together in any action. I know what it is like in some cases where I'm hurt but I have to keep going. It is about adapting and practical application. One of the reasons that when I strike with my two big knuckles in punching I only use about 70-80% power is that I've hit very hard things and can feel the force come back into me. I can hit harder but not with landing 2 knuckles, I basically have to absorb the force over a larger area so I don't injury myself. However, spreading out the force diminishes the effectiveness of a bare knuckle strike. So I found around 80% power works very well for me hitting hard things such as striking a body builder that is much bigger than me. Basically I'm going to consider the striking surface and my body being able to take the impact, this way, mentally I'm able to hit harder because I don't have a conflict between what I want to do and my body holding back due to previous injuries. Nice. Do you ever break boards with your instep or do you use another part of the foot or shin?
I like it! Makes a lot of sense. Once I can be more open to things I've no doubt I"ll adopt an attitude more like yours but for now I have a singular focus so I rather have to be closed about some things. All of them have been with instep.
eh, very tae kwon do actually, lol! Those crazy buggers love their instep kicks, lol. So thats why I say the instep is actually pretty hearty.
The selection of your target will better dictate what part of your lower leg you are using. Much like many knockdown karate styles, I advocate the shin for low kicks but the instep for high kicks. Why? We believe a whipping impact is a better choice for a flexible target such as the head as due to the physiology behind a knockout a whipping action is more preferable than a straight swing through. You will see many knockdown fighters use the instep for various kicks and routinely score knockouts with said instep kicks. It also allows for some interesting variations (i.e. the Brazilian kick). As another example: when executing a front snap kick to the groin, the instep makes a perfect tool as then you also get the whipping action of the ankle to augment the power. I think you're confusing a kick using the toes with a kick using the ball of the foot. There are very few shoes where you can effectively create a proper striking surface using the ball of the foot. One of my favorite authors, Loren Christensen, has a story about how he learned the hard way to use the instep. He was a green MP in Vietnam and attempted a roundhouse kick using the ball of his foot while wearing a pair of jungle boots (which are actually a comfortable and flexible boot), and injured himself. Some of us don't have the option of running around in fancy martial arts shoes all day long. My job, for instance, requires boots. Using a toe kick with a pair of steel toed boots would be effective, but it's a different kick than a ball of the foot kick. Much like kicking with any part of the lower leg, it takes practice and conditioning. The instep and shin are probably safer bets than the ball of the foot and the toes as they require less training. With proper training and conditioning, any of those tools can be used powerfully. The instep is no different. Watch a Youtube video of Kyokushin tameshiwari (breaking) and you will see many using the instep for various breaks.
I would still be leary about toe kicks even in shoes/boots as the force of the kick could send the toes pressing forward into the steel reinforced part of the boot and while you might be protected from injury due to striking your opponent nothing is between your toes and the inside of that boot but your socks. Any slippage at all could end up in jamming or even breaking a big toe which is wicked not fun.
If you can perform a toe kick without a pair of shoes on, you should be able to do it with shoes on. It's really just a tightening of the toes (an Uechi Ryu friend of mine stated it should be like picking up a pen with the big toe almost). I wouldn't risk it, but I don't heavily train toe kicks.
Okay, where to start. Firstly, Kuma, Convergence, Bigmikey, thanks for the coversation. Really making me have to think over things. IMHO, the weapon that you use should match the shape of the target so that the shape guides the weapon to the target much like how the right key fits into a lock. If the instep is used, what then are the good targets. Already noted that back of the head is a good target, but my spin on that was that the powerline was along the shin to hit the jawline and the instep comes around to hit the back of the head due to the trajectory of the kick. I can see a lot of different kicks that strike with the shin and the instep strikes a secondary target too, such as shin to groin and instep comes up on tailbone, could be used as a counter to a takedown or a version of a tome nage. What other targets are good for striking with the instep? I don't think I'm confused about the kicks. One of my main points was that the structure of what you kick with has to be able to take the force without injuring yourself. When you kick with ball of foot with shoes on, you basically are limited to various types of front kicks using about 70% power, so technique over raw power. When you strike with the toes with shoes on, you are talking more about maybe 40% or less power in the kick so targets like the front of the throat, under the arm pits, or maybe straight up into the conception vessel between the legs. You also could strike to the liver or spleen with the point of a shoe if the shoe was solid enough. Again not full power kick but because the force is focused on a smaller area, for the power of the kick you get more penetration so it doesn't need as much power to be effective. Now I know that you can generate a lot of force striking with the instep, after all that is where you kick a soccer ball with for most power, right on the laces of the shoes. The question is can you hit a solid person with the instep full power without getting hurt? My complaint was that it is risky as you can kick with so much power that the risk of injury is much greater. Using the instep to break is new to me. I'm used to seeing the shin used as the line of power. The evidence presented seems to indicate that the instep can be used to strike solid targets with... again this is new to me. Always been the bottom of the foot/heel or the shin for power kicks with me.
Haha. Damn straight! Yep. Completely understand your point of view. Looking back at the original post and intent of the thread, I don't think this is common in Hapkido. Not saying it's wrong or ineffectual. Still not a huge fan myself but could see it working depending on the situation. I never said we don't train to compete. I said we generally train for self defense. Big difference. Having said that, if you are training predominately for competition (TKD, MT, Kickboxing) then giving your back has far less risk. Blows to the back during comps are illegal no?
You don't think the instep fits nicely along the side of the head? As long as you don't connect with the very point of the chin (which hurts a lot too with the shin), you have a fair amount of leeway. Side of the jaw or neck, temple area, cheekbone, all of it hurts. As for the instep hitting the back of the head, that happens with shin kicks from time to time but with the mechanics of a shin kick it's not really adding anything significantly in my opinion. Ever trade nut shots in school with your friends? In my case we quickly learned that a straight thrust wasn't always the best way. If you really wanted to cause pain you snapped the fist (like a backfist). Sure, hitting the groin with anything's going to hurt, but again if you're using the shin as your primary striking target the instep's not going to add much of anything. For your idea you'd have to have the perfect range, otherwise it won't do much for you. Not so sure about the takedown counter or tomoe nage either, but that's for a different thread. Primarily for me is just the head and groin. Well, your percentages are just speculation really. If you have the proper training and conditioning, you can strike very hard with a toe kick. Watch an Uechi Ryu karateka demonstrate some of their impressive breaks with one and you learn to appreciate the power of such a kick. They can use them for round kicks too if I remember right as well. Can you kick something hard at full power with an instep without injuring yourself? Yes, with proper training. Can you kick something hard at full power with the ball of the foot without injuring yourself? Yes, with proper training. Can you kick something hard at full power with a shin without injuring yourself? Yes, with proper training. What's your kicking experience consist of? This way we can get an idea of where you're coming from.
It fits as well as the shin, I don't see a benefit to using the instep other than more range over the hitting with the shin. Of course I've not had to deal at the professional level with kicks to the head using instep. In my experiences, I was able to just move a bit off the line and stop a round kick using a palm heel slap block to the instep or throwing an elbow to the instep of the kicking foot. I suppose I could do the same to a shin coming in the same way, but for some reason it doesn't come up as often, maybe because shin kicks tend to be set up more with leg kicks and when the head kick comes it is more by surprise... don't really know why. I've been knocked out in competition by a round kick to my temple. It was using the ball of the foot and the force pulled on my brain stem it was lights out, never even saw the kick. The ball of the foot has the length of the foot so even if I had tried to block it, I still get kicked cause the leg is further way when the ball of the foot hits. This was without shoes, round kick with ball of foot is tough to do with shoes on as you pointed out. Well the use of the shin means you can kick at closer range. I find it useful to use the lead hand to jab the eyes as part of the kick. In training it is just a touch and go with the hand touching and the foot goes. I hardly kick high anymore with a round kick though, not really my strong point since I tend to be a close in fighter. Groin kicks is part of our regular training, but we all wear cups. The whipping kicks are good but I much prefer a good ball of the foot kick to the small intestine. I've caught quite a few people with this kick, especially if it doesn't drop them it breaks their posture causing them to bend forward at the waist. The shin kick to the testicles is part of our regular kata and system, but it is combined with a hammer fist to the eyes or other hand movement. Not a very good technique in my experience as I've heard accounts of its use in real fights, in some cases it did nothing immediately to the opponent, but what makes it really not good is that even when it didn't seem to do anything, hours later the shock from crushed testicles can cause death... we even had a death I remember around ten years ago when a security guard at a concert used the kick on someone and that someone ended up dying later on from shock even though they were able to walk out of the concert on their own power and kept fighting after the kick. However, the shin to the groin works well in some clinching situations like if they try to grab your leg and drive you backwards, extend your leg with the shin between their leg causing them to "rise up at the hips", then shift so that your shin is on an inside thigh and throw them. I was wrong about it being Tomoe-nage though, I looked it up, the throw is called Sumi-gaeshi. You can skip the groin shot and go right into the throw but I think of the groin shot as atemi to stun or unbalance before the throw. I'm probably the opposite. Ball of foot to the small intestine or solar plexus, bottom of foot to hip track or anything I can stomp on including the head if low enough. For regular kicks to the head, bottom of foot or heel such as a back kick. Shin for round kicks. I only use the instep for hooking like when using kicks with grabbing. I think the proper training is the key here because with training you get a feel of how hard you can effectively kick under fire. I'm into developing effective power, meaning you develop speed and power through good technique, but the feeling to any opponent is that you always hit hard because you know where to hit them and with what. So even my lesser powered strikes/kicks can drop someone cause of what I'm hitting with and where I'm hitting. One concern I have is people basically kicking too hard for the structure of the kick. What I mean is similar to a Mike Tyson punch. He knocks people out with a punch but he punches so hard that he broke his hand punching bare knuckle in prison. He could punch like that with gloves and wraps, but bare knuckle he broke his hand. For someone like me, I don't hit as hard as Mike Tyson even if I had a fist load. However, I have hit hard enough to hurt myself. Basically, the weakest points generally break first. Generally for bare knuckle, the knuckles themselves get the skin ripped off of them if I punch too hard, especially against a moving target. Once this happens, my punching power drops with that hand because my body does not want to get injured more. I just have an issue with kicking full power with the instep due to possibility of weakest points breaking... remember I did not have a problem if the instep was protected or hitting padding, only unprotected instep. You mentioned shoes that offer protection to the instep, so that would be okay, even though I didn't originally think about instep outside of sport, if the shoes offered proper protection on the instep, then kicking with the instep in real world could be practical and this would not be sport. Kicking training from karate, kajukenbo, Muay Thai, and Tai Chi mainly. I really got into different striking mechanics five or six years ago after working with my friend Professor Jay Burkey, head of the Tum Pai Branch of Kajukenbo. He got me into the use of proper pivot points, structure, power lines, head movement, relaxation, etc. I had improvement in the power of my kicks, for example, after working with him. I have sparred with many good kickers including TKD. In one sparring match I found out how good ax kicks can be, I took one on my shoulder and it almost knocked me out. My sparring partner actually pulled his ax kick to not to hurt me too badly but still I staggered and saw stars. He said that he saw I was flat footed and so I was open to the kick. He threw a round kick to my head which I evaded, but because I evaded only with my upper body and didn't move my feet he was able to change his round kick passed my head to come straight down as an ax kick on the back top of my shoulder. Kind of a rude awakening to the importance of initiating all head movement from the legs instead of leaning to the side like I did there.
Well just understand that it has worked effectively for quite a few centuries, well before there were any rules about head shots. Also bear in mind that whilst punches to the back of the head are illegal in MMA, they can still takedown. Even though they expose there back for a split second, they still do it, as opposed to stopping in mid-air (much more dangerous IMO).
I wouldn't try those against a good kicker. If you're trying that against a strong roundhouse, you're risking injury no matter what tool they're using. So what about when facing a fighter who uses low kicks to set up his instep high kicks? Sure it would work, because it's working the same way. Attacking low to bring the attention downwards, then attacking high. What part of the lower leg used is not a factor in such a case. Using the lead hand with the rear leg? Seems a tad awkward, but to each his own. That's a good kick too, but it's a different target really. Good place to execute a straight punch or uppercut too. I've only ever heard of one person dying from a groin kick and it's believed he had some kind of medical condition that went along with it. Probably the same case. I'm having trouble picturing how you're able to do that. Any pictures or video of this? I'm no Judoka but I don't think sumi gaeshi works in that kind of way to allow it to be a kick rather than using the leg to push them over. I could be wrong, but it doesn't look that way to me. Of course. When you're hands are taped, wrapped, and wearing gloves, sometimes you can't make a completely tight fist. Tyson's fist was probably just loose when he hit, which is the real factor as to why it broke. It was actually in a street fight with Mitch "Blood" Green, not in prison. Knuckle push-ups, hitting sandbags, and sparring bare knuckle more greatly reduces all that. Obviously avoid heavy head shots while bare knuckle.
It's more like catching a ball. If I'm able to track the kick then I can move in the direction of the kick inside the circle of the kick and have the top of their foot hit my elbow. Just like catching a ball also, if something is coming in at a weird angle or with lots of movement, it makes it much harder to catch the ball... so if a kick is coming in with lots of movement or a weird angle, the opportunity to strike the top of the foot is not there. If this makes sense. Most of the time I've seen fake low and go high. This works but isn't that uncommon. The kind of low kicks I have more problems with are the ones that hit hard to the front of the upper leg or inside thigh. A few of these in a row hitting solid not only hurt but they can knock me off balance making it hard for me to get out of the way of a head kick. Oh my bad. I meant same side hand as kicking leg. I wrote lead hand by mistake because of the way I train it. For round kick, I touch with the lead hand and switch step to bring my lead leg back and then kick with it. The switch step is slower but because it is a drill I can work the same range over and over again this way. In sparring or moving target, it is simply same side hand as leg... I step off line 45 degrees and the hand to the eyes and kick go together. Yeah. I tried to look up the incident about a year ago when someone was posting about groin kicks... I could not find record of it... but I recall that I did find some articles about how shock from crushed testicles can kill someone and that the person can seem fine and even keep fighting but later after they go home they end up having to go to the hospital or even dieing. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4COusy6eQKY"]Counter against Single Leg Takedown by Mike - YouTube[/ame] I found it is difficult to find good examples of the use of atemi with judo throws but we know atemi is there. In this case with sumi gaeshi, it is just adding in a shin to the groin as part of the throw as opportunity presents. Stun or unbalance before take down. Like in the video I linked to above, you are countering a single leg... it doesn't look like a kick but you can see how the shin can hit the groin. Oh, I heard prison. Did he break his hand more than once? Thanks, for the correction. Yeah good stuff. I was just saying I have learned not to hit as hard as I can with bare knuckle but rather focus on good technique so that I avoid injuring myself. Like I don't use overhand rights bare knuckle cause of the power from the punch combined with the higher risk of hitting bone on the skull.
Just seems awfully risky. A lot like using a low block against a roundhouse kick. It'll work sometimes, but all you need is once to learn never to do it again. Hmmm. I think your range still might be a bit off and that the hand really won't get to the eyes. It'll go towards their face which might distract them a bit, but most of the time I don't think you'll get close enough with it to make it useful. To each his own I guess, but really I don't see it as being feasible when executing those throws at full force. Perhaps someone with some Judo experience could share. Just the once from what I recall. It's all about target selection. Goju Ryu said it best: "Hard to soft, soft to hard."
