Kicking.

The chamber is simply the action of recocking the kick so it can be thrown again. It, as an action, absolutely does exist.

In martial arts as I learned them before I would kick with the ball of the foot. Now however we kick with the instep for everything.

 

Ask what the word is for chamber in Korean... then ask what the real translation means. I think you will find that there is no such word as chamber for punching or kicking. However, "recocking" as you put it makes sense to me... just not the literal word chamber.

The idea of a chamber as recocking is good, however, the action is that of the knee being used as a piston (up and down motion for power). As the kick first starts the knee comes up, then as the kick extends, the knee moves in the opposite direction (down) as the ball of the foot moves directly to the target.

I see people kick and use the knee as a hinge and they get very little power in their kicks compared to if they kicked properly using the knee as both a hinge and a piston.

What you call recocking for another kick is, IME, a benefit of the piston movement of the knee. As the knee drops down during impact, the piston at some point needs to change direction with the knee moving in the opposite direction, if you let the foot recoil naturally then you have the recocking for another kick.

My point is you should not actively bring your foot back but allow it to come back naturally as a result of bringing your knee to a position where it is useful to you both offensively and defensively. When done right, it is relaxed to a point where the movement is coming back as fast as your kick going out, but you hardly feel you have to put any effort into it... it should come naturally.

It is just like punching and after the punch, letting your elbow drop back to a guard position in a natural way rather than forcing it back to a guard.

When you force back a punch or a kick, you end up pulling the striking and losing power.

IMHO... hope I didn't make this sound like a criticism. My only criticism is the idea that chamber is something that exists as a part of kicking, whereas I believe it should not be part of kicking but part of where the foot naturally goes as part of the proper use of the knee during kicking.

Striking with the instep is the reason for the different kicking. Rather than mechanics of the knee as a piston as I described above. When striking with the instep or the shin, you will be using mechanics with a straighter leg more like swinging a baseball bat.

The instep is part of watered down martial arts due to using padding on the top of the foot, IMHO. It is basically using the mechanics of a Muay Thai round kick, for example, but instead of striking with the shin, the instep is used for more range. It isn't really a good way of kicking for self-defense or any sport where you do not wear padding on the top of your foot. Striking with the shin is much better for self-defense and contact sports like Muay Thai.

Anyway, this is the answer to your original question, IMHO. If you instead contacted with the shin, you probably will see that recocking the kick as you put it is less favorable compared to striking through the target as in a Muay Thai round kick. Basically, you are learning the mechanics of a Muay Thai kick now. Just think of it that way and you probably won't have much trouble learning this new way to kick.

 

AAAAhhh, I wasnt sure where you were going with that statement originally. Sorry if I sounded gruff but I was like, "yeah it does, I just did it!" lol... Symantics can be tricky, eh?

I agree that the hip is essential in power generation and in some ways the old style kicking method I'm accustomed to makes it hard to get the hip in there as fully as the "new way". But I think you sacrifice that power for that added control.... so if I really think about it I think one has to be able to do BOTH methods effctively depending on the situation. Let me explain. If I have someone that i'm feeling out, I might kick in the old school fashion so I can essentially jab at my opponent then when I'm ready, engage with the power kick...

The more I think about it, they can almost be used as two separate techniques, one as a feint or jab, the other as the knockout punch so to speak.

 

Yeah it sounds interesting. Like you I'd probably be wary myself. That may be more because I'm 6'4 and even though my kicks have range, they do take a little longer to get out there and can be jammed easier than someone's who is 5'10.

Good luck with it and hopefully you get through to your black without much more disturbance.

 

Well you actually have at least three different kicks if you get where I'm coming from. The difference is with the striking surface you use.

1) Kicking through the target using your instep as the striking surface. This is a sport technique that will give you the longest range on your kick, but it is only good where you have padded foot protection. This is considered watered down martial arts and is pretty much in the long run a very bad habit.

2) You have kicking through the target striking with the shin. This is a very good way to kick, but you need to be closer in your target.

3) You have kicking using the ball of the foot. This kick delivers the most force due to the smaller striking surface of the ball of the foot compared to instep and shin. However, most force does not mean most power. It delivers the most force for the power; however, kicking with the shin as in a Muay Thai round kick is going to have more overall power. Also, the configuration of the striking with the ball of the foot makes it easier to recoil after the kick rather than continue to strike passed a target.

You also have other striking surfaces such as heel, edge of foot, toes, etc... all of which have different kicking techniques.

Basically, you don't have to kick different ways, just match your striking surface to the target on the opponents body. If you are striking solar plexus, use ball of foot and naturally recoil the kick back. If you are striking the legs or arms or across the body or the jawline then use the shin as the striking surface and strike passed the target. You can replace both shin and ball of foot kicks with instep, but when you do, you will strike passed the target the same as if hitting with the shin. Still I do not like striking with the instep as I mentioned already.

 

If it was posted then it shall be the truth until the forum Gods delete it.

In all seriousness though, the reason we spin all the way round is because if we miss and try to stop, then our leg could go past there face and our back would be exposed for much longer. If we managed to to stop before/at there face then our foot, for about a half secons is almost being to be grabbed, and us taken down. Basically, if it's still moving, you can't catch it.

Hope that clears things up.

And please don't give me the "We don't train to compete" shpeel, it's pretty lame.

 

Sorry, this is not correct. The mechanics of a Korean round kick are different than a Thai round kick. It is not a Thai round kick with a different striking surface. In Korean full-contact tournaments (Hapkido and TKD) fighters are wearing a Hogu (chest protector) which disperses the impact of a strike to the body over a wide area. There is minimal padding on the top of the foot. The reason modern Korean kicking throws the hip in and snaps with the foot instead of the shin is to concentrate the blow in a small area so that it can penetrate through the Hogu. The ankle is loose and not locked to provide extra "whip" at the end. The instep is also used because certain kicks wrap around the backside of the opponents’ body to targets like the back of the head, or kidneys, both of which are legal targets in Korean full contact fighting.

Striking with the shin also exsists in Hapkido in non-sport hapkido and even then the mechanics of the kick are diffent than in Muay Thai in terms of the position of the hips and the supporting leg.


I have a friend who was able to break ribs with this kind of (instep) kick in a situation outside the dojang, but of course, this is not something he learned in a kids' TKD class.

 

Good post Convergencezone.

Both ways of kicking have their merits and disadvantages, so really it pays to practice them both. Both are also using two different types of impact, as when you return to your chamber it's more of a whipping impact, whereas when you "swing through" it's more of a smashing impact. Both have their merits.

I like to swing through if my opponent still has somewhat of a guard up as even when they block it's still going to hurt them and has a chance of getting through to my intended target. This works especially well for high kicks. If there's a possibility they may attack my supporting leg or somehow grab my attacking leg, I'll stick with returning to chamber. I'm not the best kicker by any means, but these are just some of my insights.

Kenji Midori demonstrating both ways of kicking, and both are packing plenty of power for him.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj2cQhxy6sY"]Kyokushin karate speed kick tutorial - YouTube[/ame]

 

Striking with the instep is something developed from sport. You even mentioned Hogu, chest protector. The wearing of chest protectors is part of the sport. Just the same as techniques that work best when hitting with boxing gloves on is part of the sport aspect of boxing.

However, when you hit with the shin and the instep comes around and hits a soft target like the back of the head, then that is not sport, but the instep is not the powerline for the kick, it is a secondary to the powerline near the bottom of the shin. So you got a mix of sport and non-sport when the instep comes around and strikes a secondary target like the back of the head.

Striking full force and hitting with the instep as the primary striking surface, on the other hand, is still for sport only. It has very little practicality for real world application. Ball of the foot or shin are much more practical for real world. The instep is usable to hit a secondary target but that means the instep is not on the primary power line.

As for mechanics of the kick. BigMikey specifically was describing a kick that goes through the target and does not recover back. I don't know how much different that is from a Muay Thai kick with good hip rotation, such as the downward Muay Thai round kick. There are multiple Muay Thai round kicks, I'm wondering if you aren't thinking of the 45 degree upward Muay Thai round kick which can recover back due to having less hip rotation.

To me the below kick represents near identical the mechanics of a Muay Thai downward round kick, but it is supposed to be TKD. The only difference is near the beginning the way the foot is brought up, but after that the delivery is pretty much the exact as a downward round kick done in Muay Thai even down to the supporting foot weighted on the ball of the foot/toes.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSY0ydLwb5U"]Taekwondo Downward Roundhouse Kick Tutorial (Kwonkicker) - YouTube[/ame]

 

I would have to disagree. Put on a pair of sturdy shoes and try to kick your heavy bag with the ball of the foot. I'd try it with only medium contact, this way when you hurt yourself (as there is a high probability of that) you'll only be off of training for a few days. The instep and shin are both very useful for self defense.

 

Nice video Kuma. Clearly showed the shin as the primary striking surface on a kick that goes passed the target such as when he broke the baseball bats. This was the kicking style that BigMikey was talking about in this thread. The instep should not be the primary powerline for this kick, the shin is. In Muay Thai competition, I hurt one of my opponents so he could barely walk because he tried to kick from too far away and hit with his instep, I dropped two or three elbows into his instep and he stopped throwing that kick. If he had used his shin, I would have been on his power line and would have been harder for me to evade his kicking.


The video also showed the instep as a striking surface instead of the ball of the foot in the context of a kick that recovers back. This is the old way that BigMikey was taught to kick. The instep would not be as good as the ball of the foot in this case for damaging the opponent, but when you are hitting pads, such as in the video, there is a higher risk of jamming toes due to the way pads absorb the force. So when kicking pads, the instep is safer for training. Convergencezone brought up a good point about how chest protectors change what kicking surfaces are best... this is still sport oriented to me, but it might be safer to use instep compared to ball of foot striking some surfaces.

 

I can't kick any other way then with the instep. For us, it has to be instep, with the exception of a side kick. So thats where my stance comes from. Right now, I do what they tell me. So muay thai kicks aren't even something I entertain. But I see what you're saying.

 

Again, don't shoes change the dynamics of the kick. I know plenty that use the toes (point of the shoe) to kick with instead of the ball. Others will kick using the heel as the striking surface. Others will use the shin. They don't kick with the laces (instep). You don't need full power kicks when you got steel toes boots for example. The point of kicking and hitting with the ball of the foot is you don't need to hit with full power to have a good effect on the opponent. Kicking the small intestines or liver doesn't take full power, it takes penetration. If you shoes don't allow ball of foot, then use a different kick.

Now I'm not saying that you can't strike with the instep, I'm only saying that it is a secondary power line, not the primary power line. Anyone that kicks full power and directs all the force only to the instep is asking for trouble. If you are going full power, you got shin and other striking surfaces to use.

 

Hi Rebel Wado,

My response was because you mentioned that Korean kicks strike with the instep for increased range, which is not correct. I have seen point tournaments do what you are describing, so this perhaps is what you have seen that makes you think this. You made the point that kicking with the instep used the same mechanics as kicking with the shin, which is also not correct. When modern Korean roundhouse kicking changed from the ball of the foot to the instep, the entire body mechanics changed as well, so it is not the same kick. If you use the same “old style” kick where your weight is on the supporting leg instead of falling forward, but simply change the weapon from the ball of the foot to the instep, you will not be able to transfer power. You may have seen people kicking incorrectly like this as well, which may have influenced your opinion as well.

You also mention kicking the back of the head as “non-sport”, and claim it is a mix of “sport and non sport”. I am unsure as to why you think this because this move is legal to score knockouts in both full contact Olympic taekwondo, as well as Hapkido, and is used to hit the kidneys (legal in Olympic style fighting as well) so by definition it is a “sport technique”. I did not dispute the fact that that these were sport techniques, so I am unsure of your point.

I disagree that the instep cannot be used effectively outside a sport situation. Although I initially held this view myself, I changed my mind when I worked out with adult Taekwondo black belts who were training for Olympic style full contact fighting. Like many sport techniques, the fact that people train to apply them against non-compliant partners makes up for disadvantages of hitting with the foot. Kicking with the shin is also good, and hapkido includes these types of kicks as well, but they are closer to Kyokushin kicks than Muay Thai. (I make this assertion independent of my thought that Olympic style fighting alone is not a good training method for Self-defense without cross-training that addresses boxing skills).

Also, the video you posted is not only “supposed to be” taekwondo. It is, in fact, a taekwondo kick, striking with the foot, as is legal in Taekwondo. No one is saying this is not a sport technique, so again, I am unsure of your point.

Still, I personally would recommend kicks in self defense that target the knee or groin rather than the body or head anyway.

 

See, this is where I wrinkle my nose. What you're saying, in effect, is that I can generate more power if I hit you with my forearm than my fist.

My instep being at the furthest point of my leg, like my fist is on my arm, is going to generate AT LEAST as much force as my shin during a kick. If I swing a stick at you, will you take LESS damage by getting hit with its end or its middle?

The shin can strike a fierce blow, absolutely and because of the thickness of the shinbones vs those of the foot is certainly more suited for certain types of strikes with a lower risk of damage to ones self but I dont know that it would generate more force. The closer you get to the flexing joint the less force you generate. Not my opinion, its fact. In the chain, It goes, hip, femur, knee, shin, ankle FOOT. Foot being furthest away is scientifically proven to be the point of most force.

Or perhaps i've misunderstood what you mean when you say primary powerline...

 

Agreed. Why do I want to bring my foot from waaaayyy down there all the way up to your head when my hand is right there just ACHIN to jab you in the snotbox?

Plus the higher you bring your leg, the longer it takes before it can be used to locomote.

 

Hey BigMikey, glad you posted. I'm not getting on you or your teachers. I'm trying to address that the instep is a fragile area to strike anything hard with and that the power line for a round kick that goes passed the target is the end of the shin, not the top of the foot.

My intended message to you is that when you kick passed a target so much that if you missed, then the powerline is through your shin. What this means is that you can take your normal kicking range for a round kick and make it around 80% that range for the most power so that it would hit with the shin. You can get that wrap around effect where your instep hits a target on the backside. When you do this, since you are closer, if the opponent moves in they are too close to kick, and if the opponent moves away, they are still in range of your longer ranged kicks such as your back kick.

All I'm saying is aim with your shin and you will have more power with a kick that goes passed a target.

 

I kind of already addressed this. What I'm saying is that the instep is fragile and if you kick with all your power, you will more likely hurt yourself. The instep can be used for lesser power kicks or as a secondary hit to the main power line. On the other hand, if you are hitting something soft like pads, you can get away with using the instep.

By primary powerline, this means the point you use to aim with is aligned structurally to take the force of impact. Other point can rotate around this point, such as if the primary powerline is at the end of your shin, the instep can wrap around the target.

The loss of power isn't completely structural, it is also mental. If you kick and hit your instep on an elbow and break your foot or hurt it badly, the power of your next kicks will diminish because your body doesn't want to be hurt. You can kick all day with power hittin with the ball of your foot, but as soon as you jam a toe, you mentally aren't going to want to kick with as much power. Same with the shin if you hurt it. The instep is more fragile so the likely hood of it being hurt against a hard target is more. If you hurt your instep and that is your powerline, then mentally your kicks will be weaker after the injury. See what I mean?

 

Its not THAT fragile. I've kicked elbows, forearms, walls, steel posts, lol... I'm fine. I've smashed my instep into 100 pound heavy bags countless times and been fine. I've DROPPED an 85 pound steel dumbell on my instep and barely got a bruise. Its not as fragile as you seem to be making it. Hence my nose wrinkling, lol.

 

I DO see your point though, and agree that the shin is probably tougher because its a more substantial piece of bone.