Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Spirit Reaper, Jul 17, 2003.

  1. Capt Ann

    Capt Ann Valued Member

    It is true that you cannot measure love, belief, faith, character, integrity, or dozens of other intangibles.....BUT you CAN see their result. I tend not to believe in chi, because everything that I have seen done or promoted as having been done by "chi" could easily be explained by something that I COULD measure/see/touch/understand.

    It is a general rule in science not to introduce an unnecessary concept.
  2. RubyMoon

    RubyMoon New Member

    The exact same thing could be said of all those intangibles you mentioned. What results can you show me of love that cannot be explained by some far more reasonable, scientific means, i.e. animal instinct...hysteria...delusion...hormonal stimulus...insanity...etc.?

    Does love exist? Does it have power? What do you think?

    Having experienced love, I find the existence of love undeniable. Maybe it really is all in my head, but frankly I don't care. Scientifically dismissing love does not change what it means to me, nor does it diminish its power. I believe in it and that is enough. Furthermore, I know many others who claim to have experienced love. As they describe their experiences and feelings, I hear my own experiences and feelings being described back to me. This reinforces my belief in love. Shared experiences may not constitute scientific proof, but they are difficult to ignore.

    Now replace the word "love" with the word "chi" in the above paragraph and re-read it. Interesting, no?
  3. Sub zero

    Sub zero Valued Member

    As i have said before chi i snot intangable ( or i don't believe it to be).I simply bvelieve thta this energy is maybe up of electrical, thermal and kenetic elements (all coming together at the right time) along with alignment of areas in the boddy to maxamise muscle and everything else.
  4. zun

    zun New Member

    I'd say this is conciously learning to control one's subconcious motor functions. For example, the blinking happens subconciously - however when we concentrate we can control the blink rate.

    In rapport, subconciously each person mirrors the other person. I've felt the other persons energy because in this case, we're both highly attuned to each other.
  5. zun

    zun New Member

    Let me add more fuel to the fire:

    Love is a chemically induced attraction.
  6. zun

    zun New Member

    That's okay. If you choose not to believe Chi.
  7. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    I tend not to believe in chi, because everything that I have seen done or promoted as having been done by "chi" could easily be explained by something that I COULD measure/see/touch/understand.

    By this logic we could also say that a coconut that crossed the ocean and wound up on some island shore thousands of miles of way, could have done so by way of ship. However, the fact that it did so by itself is discounted because it's not familiar territory so we'll go with the ship theory instead?

    This is the same as saying, because I don't understand or did not personally witness a coconut drop off a tree, roll down to shore and then float across 1000 miles of ocean; I don't believe it because a ship, with which I am more familiar, could have transported it instead.

    I don't get the logic here....
  8. Shade

    Shade New Member

    Zun, just going back to your devil's advocate post (I like playing him too sometimes.....don't we all :D ).

    Having re-read this thread and your post, I agree that it is good to have people who question the existance or validity of x and y, as I beleive you are correct in asserting the theory that this is how man and society progress scientifically, mentally, emotionally and even spiritually.

    There are many things that I often question myself, so as to build a greater understanding and to learn.

    But for me the key is to maintain an open mind on matters, especially those of which I have no real experience of.

    What I was getting at with my post was that I am frankly saddened that there are people in this world who portray a closed mind to things that they have not personally experienced. I find this a shame. Thats all.
  9. Shade

    Shade New Member

    Now if I want to play Devil's Advocate I could say something like i've been practising CKD for x weeks but I haven't seen it used effectively to defend a real attack, therefore it must be impossible to defend using CKD as I haven't seen it and don't believe it.

    (I don't actually believe this is the case, but just trying to put a point across. I haven't personally seen an effective defence against an attack using CKD, but I have an open enough mind to believe that it is a distinct possibility).

    If I went to a Tai Chi class for a few weeks, or even a few months, I wouldn't expect to experience some earth moving chi phenomenon, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Same as not seeing a successful CKD defence doesn't mean it can't happen.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2003
  10. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Ah, of course. Chi is outside the realms of science, that explains it all. It doesn't fit with any experiments done to try and detect or test it, and has never been succesfully demonstrated under scientific conditions, therefore science must be wrong, since chi obviously exists.

    If it was just that I had never come across anything supposed to be chi, then I wouldn't be fussed about believing in it. However, many people have said they would demonstrate chi to me or on me, including alternative therapy clinics. So far none of it has had any effect whatsoever. That is why I don't believe in chi.

    However, you would have seen it effective defend against something approximating a real attack. I've never seen chi work in any situation, real or practice.

    No one has dismissed love, in fact its been explained as the physical manifestation of a form of obsessive compulsive disorder, the initial burst usually lasting about six months before the derangement is recovered from. Knowing what it is and trying to find out more about it does not diminish its power, though I'd still like to point out that chi has *never* been demonstrated under respectable scientific conditions.

    I'd also like to add that no one has claimed that they can heal or do anything 'magical' with love.
  11. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    I think chi is the force that impels normally sane people to write long, drawn out threads on MA forums!

    I'm guilty of it myself but please, for all our sakes, stop the madness!!!
  12. Shade

    Shade New Member

    nzric, fair point.

    But before I go I must just say to LBR that actually no i havent seen CKD defend against anything approximating a real attack.

    Without wishing to be rude, drills etc in a MA class are not real attacks. They are just drills. All the drills I have seen so far have been one person attacks while one defends, then swap. To be anything near a real fight resemblance it would have to be both attack and defend simultaneously which is sparring, which of course we dont do.

    If I go to a pub tonight and got attacked by someone, they aren't going to throw a punch, wait for me to block it and return a punch whilst staying stood still in front of me (well some might but they would be idiots).

    More than likely they would throw a punch, which I may block, and then when I throw a return punch, i find that not only have they moved from the position they were in when they threw the first punch but they have thrown a second punch also (hey that wasn't in my drill in fair now). But i'm just thinking back to when i had my last fight, I aprreciate that every fight is different etc.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2003
  13. RubyMoon

    RubyMoon New Member

    Prove it.
  14. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Ah, of course. Chi is outside the realms of science, that explains it all. It doesn't fit with any experiments done to try and detect or test it, and has never been succesfully demonstrated under scientific conditions, therefore science must be wrong, since chi obviously exists.

    No Science isn't wrong, it's just that it hasn't developed an adequate means of measuring or detecting Qi yet. But this does not mean Qi doesn't exist, it only means Science cannot validate it within a scientific paradigm. Luckily Scientific paradigms are not the be all and end all of reality, at this point I'll call on Quantum physics as my case in point!

  15. zun

    zun New Member

    Oi! Shade! NO!

    I'm the only one allowed to play devil's advocate! :)
  16. zun

    zun New Member

    Guilty as charged, m'honour!

    It's the chi that did it. The physical manifestation of a form of obsessive compulsive disorder... aka love - I did it for love!

    As I read somewhere: Chi - words fail.

    Guys go out there enjoy your MA. And, if you haven't already, hopefully you'll one day come across Chi/Energy/Ki/Prana/kamae/Mana/Life Force etc

    Live long and prosper :)
  17. Sub zero

    Sub zero Valued Member

    is one of your definitions of chi is that it could NEVER be explained in lab conditions by science no matter how far it advances from it's curent (in my view) to clinaclly minded state?

    If so why?

    And if not then i don't see how we disagree.
  18. zun

    zun New Member

    Not sure exactly what you're asking, old fruity.

    I am assume you're asking: Will chi ever be explained by scientific experimentation (in clinical trials)?

    In the future, I believe the views of eastern science and the modern science will agree with regards to Chi.

    It's a matter of time, patients and energy :)
  19. Tatsuma

    Tatsuma New Member

    here's a repost of my "ki believers and disbelievers reunited" in case someone missed it :)

    I felt the need to post it after seeing both believers and disbelievers talk about it...

    A Modern Definition of Qi
    by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming

    It is important that you know about the progress that has been made by modern science in the study of Qi. This will keep you from getting stuck in the ancient concepts and level of understanding.

    In ancient China, people had very little knowledge of electricity. They only knew from acupuncture that when a needle was inserted into the acupuncture cavities, some kind of energy other than heat was produced which often caused a shocking or a tickling sensation. It was not until the last few decades, when the Chinese people were more acquainted with electromagnetic science, that they began to recognize that this energy circulating in the body, which they called Qi, might be the same thing as what today's science calls "bioelectricity."

    We must look at what modern Western science has discovered about bioelectromagnetic energy. Many bioelectricity related reports have been published, and frequently the results are closely related to what is experienced in Chinese Qigong training and medical science. For example, during the electrophysiological research of the 1960's, several investigators discovered that bones are piezoelectric; that is, when they are stressed, mechanical energy is converted to electrical energy in the form of electric current. This might explain one of the practices of Marrow Washing Qigong in which the stress on the bones and muscles is increased in certain ways to increase the Qi circulation.

    It is understood now that the human body is constructed of many different electrically conductive materials, and that it forms a living electromagnetic field and circuit. Electromagnetic energy is continuously being generated in the human body through the biochemical reaction in food and air assimilation, and circulated by the electromotive forces (EMF) generated within the body.

    In addition, you are constantly being affected by external electromagnetic fields such as that of the earth, or the electrical fields generated by clouds. When you practice Chinese medicine or Qigong, you need to be aware of these outside factors and take them into account.

    Countless experiments have been conducted in China, Japan, and other countries to study how external magnetic or electrical fields can affect and adjust the body's Qi field. Many acupuncturists use magnets and electricity in their treatments. They attach a magnet to the skin over a cavity and leave it there for a period of time. The magnetic field gradually affects the Qi circulation in that channel. Alternatively, they insert needles into cavities and then run an electric current through the needle to reach the Qi channels directly. Although many researchers have claimed a degree of success in their experiments, none has been able to publish any detailed and convincing proof of the results, or give a good explanation of the theory behind the experiment. As with many other attempts to explain the How and Why of acupuncture, conclu?sive proof is elusive, and many unanswered questions remain. Of course, this theory is quite new, and it will take more study and research before it is verified and completely understood.

    Much of the research on the body's electrical field relates to acupuncture. For example, Dr. Robert O. Becker, author of The Body Electric, reports that the conductivity of the skin is much higher at acupuncture cav?ities, and that it is now possible to locate them precisely by measuring the skin's conductivity. Many of these reports prove that the acupuncture which has been done in China for thousands of years is reasonable and scientific.

    Although the link between the theory of "the Body Electric" and the Chinese theory of Qi is becoming more accepted and better proven, there are still many questions to be answered. For example, how can the mind lead Qi (electricity)? How actually does the mind generate an EMF (electromotive force) to circulate the electricity in the body? How is the human electromagnetic field affected by the multitude of other electric fields which surround us, such as radio wiring or electrical appliances? How can we readjust our electromagnetic fields and survive in outer space or on other planets where the magnetic field is completely different from the earth's? You can see that the future of Qigong and bioelectric science is a challenging and exciting one. It is about time that we started to use modern technology to understand the inner energy world which has been for the most part ignored by Western society.

    This article is a direct translation of text from the book “Taijiquan, Classical Yang Style” by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. YMAA 1999
  20. Tatsuma

    Tatsuma New Member

    Talking about love

    were you aware that it's been discovered to be a simple chemical reaction created by the brain and it's a simple mecanism to avoid over-reproduction of the species?

    Kinda remove the glamorous air around love that way :p

    same thing for Chi.... rip it off the "mystic" stuff related around it, and you simply discover it for what it is

Share This Page