Go jump off a two story building and see where you turn to fix you up, those "prideful western scientists", or mister acupuncture.
That's an ill-defined request. 'Tis obvious you don't know what accupuncture is for. Before anyone else goes off halfcocked, I should add another obvious point: whether chi exists, and what chi does, are two entirely separate issues. To prove that "chi does not ___" or "chi is not ___" in no way proves that chi doesn't exist, because chi might very well do something else, or it might be something else. Existence and behavior are distinct issues.
No, its a dead on point. What good is this "chi healing" nonsense, if one can't use it to save lives? What right do you have to poke fun at "western science" if it actually saves lives? Acupuncture isn't energy at all. If I gave you a massage, and said it was because I was "settling your chi" or something like that, would you believe me?
You have to make up your mind what you are talking about if you want other people to talk with you. First you said "jump off a building." Then you said "saving lives." Which is it? These are two different things. And also, there's more to health-care than saving lives. There's also the promotion of optimal health ... but maybe you hadn't considered that?
We're talking about proving chi exists here. You haven't. Stating that acupuncture points to "chi" as the reason it has effect is not viable proof. The fact of the matter is, if "chi" and its manipulation were so strong as people tout, then it would easily be able to heal grevious wounds. But it cant. Telling me that acupuncture prolongs lives says nothing of chi's existence. Being nice to my cat and petting it prolongs its life too, under the same proof acupuncture's own effects use. Am I beaming "healing chi" into my cat? No, by the definition of chi, I've never felt it or used it in my life. No inexplicable warmness, no powerful, unexplainable force, nothing. Nor have I ever seen someone using such an unexplainable force (yes, I have seem people CLAIMING to be using it, but it was obvious they were not). Just because people have been fooled for so long, doesn't mean everyone else has to be too. It's one of the downsides of traditional eastern thinking. So much is placed in respecting one's elders, and no ground is given for skepticism. Its a misbalance in the culture that came up with the idea of balacing two opposites to begin with. Since martial arts left the east, its been refined. No longer are people so foolish to discount other styles, and cling to techniques and mindsets that do not work because "this is/isn't the way our elders did it". You want to know why people have been practicing acupuncture for thousands of years and believe its chi theyre working with? Thats why. I'm sure you'll find practitioners who do not believe it is the nebulous concept of "chi" that makes what they do work, the same as you will find practitioners of other "chi" arts that are more realistic in their approach. I've read at least one article by a man who did Tai Chi, but had a far more realistic approach to it.
Here's some more issues to deal with Discuss Placebo Effect in relation to Preventative Heath Practises. IMA schools lack of interaction with other MA fighting styles. Lack of Studies into effect of Medative practises on Longevity. Cultural Linguistic Msyticfication of Common Status related Positions. Man I have got to get out of Uni
Ahhh ... it's the explanation that you don't like, not the phenomena. That's something different. Fine. Don't call it "chi." Call it the energy that is inside the body. See, living cells move, but dead cells don't. Why? Why don't dead cells move? I don't fully know why, and neither does anybody else, because no one fully understands life. But let's give that life-energy any name you like. Some people like the name "chi." Some people like the name "the energy that made the body." The name doesn't matter. The thing behind the name matters. That thing behind the name is what heals the body. Accupuncture, tai chi, chi gong, yoga, and chiropractic all tap into that life energy and get results. And it's their results that prove the existence of ... of whatever you want to call it, and we might as well call it chi! Unfortunately, charletans like to pretend that they are tapping into the same chi, when in reality, they are tricksters. But their fraud (or ignorance, if we give them the benefit of doubt) does not negate the theory or the results of healers. One needs to separate the legitimate people from the frauds.
Tireces, Why are you so resistant to the concept of chi? I don't know for a fact that it exists but I can definately feel what I take to be it's effects when I do my hand forms, martial training and chi gong etc. I'm not some easily fooled kid who came into the martial arts with any preconceived ideas, but I can feel things happening that I can't explain. Life is all about energy. Why should it not be possible for someone to develop that energy through the correct type of practice and use it for healing, martial power etc? The fact that you cant feel it may be because you don't believe in it or are not open to the possibility that it exists whereas others are. I may be completely wrong about this but I don't believe I am. If I am then i am prepared to wear the 'Donkey Ears' when the truth of the matter is revealed to me. It is also important as previously stated, to separate the Bull@&$£ from the truth. I have never met nor do I think I ever will meet anyone who can genuinly demonstrate Empty Force or no touch knockouts. It is perhaps this type of thing that causes so much resistance to the concept.
Sorry to intrude, but I just stumbled upon this thread. I agree that the existence of chi seems unreal, too many ideas brought on by society especially cartoons give people the impression that in order to demonstrate the usage of power it must be visible. I dont know why they just do. Chi is energy the body has inside, the "spark" that makes the heart pump, the blood flow, your lungs to work. It can be manipulated, sometimes to make your body stronger or able to resist more, or produce a hightening of senses during meditation. I was taught to use the sword as my fighting style so I was also taught the sword must become me in a way. Focusing my body's energy into the sword to wield it like it should be. Finding weaknesses in armor and targets through the hightened senses. Most of the teachers I know are not so open to teach others or like publicity and such, because the arts they teach are mostly from thier families passed on through generations.
I joined up today and stumbled on this thread too. I use ki in healing every day, I am a Reiki Master. I wouldn't worry about trying to explain it, ever try explaining why something is alive? It just is. Call it ki, chi, prana, energy, biomagnetic force, or whatever you like if you must give it a name. Better to learn how to work with it and use it. Learn Qui gong, tai chi or become a reiki practioner, then you will have the proof you desire. As a matter of interest the kata that make most use of ki and its applications are the mainstream of many systems: Naihanchin, Sanchin and Tensho. We learn the internal arts as part of our journey to become martial artists in our system. It is a facscinating study and I can recommend it to anyone who wants to widen their horizon.
Spirit Reaper , i know an excercise that maybe can help you, stand up in from of a wall and try to push it forward without touching it, just put your hands in front of the wall and try hard not with your muscles but your inner energy, you can do it also against a table trying to push it down or up ( with out touching it ok? ) Another exercise is walking around with your palms down feeling you susbtract energy from the earth. ] And the last one i know is to stand up making your body heavier, and walking as you had glued your feet to the floor. :Alien: This tehcniques won't work if you don't focus and concentrate on what you are doing and waht you want. ? How to know if it is working? If you feel that your hands are really hot the same with your feet, for sure it is working
Wether Chi, Ki, Energy exists - what does it matter. It's like proving electricity 200 years ago - we would see electricity during a thunderstorm, otherwise electricity could not be measured, used or harnessed. It was called the work of the devil. In the same way, we need science and technology to move on. The best scientific name I've heard for chi is Electromagnetic force. It's said to be the same that sharks use to detect their quarry. I was a disbeliever of chi until I started Taiji. Guys if you don't believe in chi - fine. I'm not here to prove or disprove chi. What I would recommend is that you go along to a Internal MA workshop or use your external MA against 90 year-old taiji expert. Proof indeed One of the best exercises I know, is a posture called Embracing the tree (aka Holding the balloon). Raise your arms so they about shoulder height. Keep the arms slightly bent. Legs slight bent, shoulder width. Pelvis tucked under. Imagine hugging the tree. Keep the static posture for an hour. After a few minutes, your arms will ache. Ignore this and just when you think you can't hold your arms up any longer - your chi will kick in to hold it up for as long as you want. The feeling is as spawnpain describes it. You may also feel some magnetic effect
*choke, cough, splutter* You mean their extraordinary sense of scent? Electromagnetic force huh? Would love to know where you got that one from. Done, or at least done the first one. Played with a 46 year old taijia expert for the second. Haven't yet seen any proof, or experienced it. Amusing when the instuctor of the class told me that I was paralysed though.
Hammer head sharks. http://www.thebigzoo.com/zoo/Sphyrnidae.asp No less from American scientist: http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/15816 http://crane.50megs.com/index6j.htm Just because you are not aware of certain facts or experiences, does not proof make. I suggest keeping an open mind.
Fair enough on the electromagnetic force, thought they just used it for navigation. Impressive that. Notice that the article also says it is an ability which humans lack. I've read that article before, wanted actual proof or at least evidence then. And from that article: Not a particularly good art then, is it, if only superhumans can do it? Well at least the writer admits that. Right, so I'll go to the local class and tell the people there that they've got less than a 1% chance of being the incredibly gifted superhumans who can actually use it. I repeat, fairly useless then, ain't it? I've read and heard far too many stories like this with no evidence to be convinced by another one, yet again with no actual evidence.
We have to put this context. It mentions that sharks can perceive weak electromagnetic forces. It says nothing about sharks OR humans being able to OR not able to generate electromagnetic forces. Also note that I only mentioned the best scientific name I've come across for chi is electromagnetic force. I did not proffer this article as proof of chi. Just as proof that sharks use electromagnetic force. Really? a frail old man who looked more suitable for an old folks home was able to defeat the king of karate, who defeated the likes of the black cobra muay thai fighter. I have to disagree - taiji is truly is an amazing and spectactular art. The problem is not the art. The problem is with the artist. An external MA takes a few months to learn and use. Heck, I was able to use Muay Thai effectively after just 3 months. An internal MA takes years to learn. It takes years to attain the (internal) skill level. It takes further years of dedication to use it in combat. Very few have the dedication, or even the right instructor, to learn the art. Hence, the definition of superhuman. Btw, you might want to extend research beyond your local class or backyard. Anyhow, we've digressed. This discusion is about Chi and not the validity of taiji. How do you prove to a blindman the existence of colour?
ive seen ki in use, its a bit hard to believe it if you havent seen it, but dont just go saying "it doesnt exist" Keep trying reaper!
Chi being electromagnetic force was not mentioned in any of the articles you mentioned, nor any way that it could be. More importantly if it were electromagnetic force, then it would be possible to detect it under scientific conditions with relative ease. For some mysterious reason this has never been achieved. But of course, it must be because chi is a mysterious power and cannot be detected by modern technology or used whenever it is being measured under experimental conditions. Well, having looked at the supposed pictures of the fight I'd say its less of the frail old man who looks more suitable for an old folks home, and more hard old goit who's done martial arts for so long he doesn't even know what he's doing any more and just reacts. I have done. You might want to extend yours beyond the standard 'chi and internal arts are all powerful' propoganda. You don't, but you do provide evidence of it by getting reliable sources to tell him about it, or by working from first principles up to electromagnetic radiation and wavelengths, then switch to biology for a while before getting onto the interface. I've seen ki in use as well. Its a bit hard to believe it if you've seen how many of the 'ki tricks' are done, but don't just go saying it exists.
Akimac and Tireces, also don't underestimate the power of the mind. I think most everyone here will agree that the mind can overcome the body and do some incredible things that we think we can't do. Look at soldiers under severely stressful conditions in training and in battle, look at mothers rescuing children. The mind is a powerful thing. I am a scientist and usually feel that if I can't see it, smell it, taste it, test it, burn it, boil it, feel it, or somehow hold it in my hand, then its not there. But chi is something within us, each differently perhaps, that we may or may not recognize. You both present very good arguments IMO!
