kenpo the lost idea

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by matsloth, Sep 13, 2003.

  1. matsloth

    matsloth New Member

    KENPO

    HI AGAIN DONT GET ME WRONG IM NOT ONY INTERESTED IN MODERN,THERE IS GREAT BEAUTY IN TRADITION AND WISDOM ,BUT GOING BACK TO INSTRUCTORS I TRY TO SPEND ALL TRAINING SESSIONS ON THE FLOOR WITH MY STUDENTS ,I WOULD NOT EXPECT THEM TO MAKE A TECNEQUE WORK THAT I COULD NOT OR DO 100 PRESS UPS IF I WONT ,BUT FOR ARGUMENTS SAKE IM NOT A GREAT KICKER IM OK BUT NOT GREAT BUT I HAVE A STUDENT WHO IS ALSO A 1ST DAN TKD AND A AWSOME KICKER SO OVERY MONTH HE TAKES A KICK CLASS AND I TAKE PART THAT WAY MY STUDENT ARE GETTING THE BEST EVEN IF ITS NOT MY SPECIALITY LIKE KICKING(MY LOVE LIES IN GROUND WORK AND SPEED TRAINING)IM TRYING TO FIND A GOOD BOXER AT THE MOMENT TO TAKE A COUPLE OF CLASSES EXPAND MY STUDENT MINDS DO YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN ABOUT MOVEING ON INSTRUCTORS WOULD NEVER HAVE DONE THAT IN MY EARLY DAYS .THIS TO ME IS PROGRESSION .THIS WAY I CONTINUE TO LEARN ALWAYS I HAVE STUDENTS FROM ALL STYLES THAT HAVE CHANGED OR CROSS TRAIN NOW .LET LOSE THE DAYS OF SENSEI SAYS NOT SENSEI DOSE ANY WAY COOL TO READ FROM YOU AGAIN,ITHOUGHT I WOULD USE THIS ONE THIS TIME:yeleyes: COOL HEY LOOKS LIKE A NINJA .
     
  2. Thomas Vince#1

    Thomas Vince#1 New Member

    Parker's Dream is alive and well...

    Ed Parker's Dream is alive and well and in capable hands. You just need to get the people who know how to expand on it. There will never be any "new " techniques only techniques that have been re-arranged. One of the real concepts in Parker Kenpo are the Master Key Movements. Kenpo was never just a kick-punch style, it is all encompassing and includes ideas from all martial arts and most importantly from combat. I fone person can understand how to control the demensions of height, width and depth then that fighter is extremely formidable. I personally like to close the gap and "put them in the ground not on it." Ground work grappling and wrstling are important factors as well as boxing and throwing type knowledge. Actually when Mitose started teaching Kenpo in Hawaii it was called "KENPO JIU JITSU"
    I have a copy of the cover of the book showing the title and Mr. Mitose, if you e-mail Ttomvince@aol.com I will send you a copy of this.
     
  3. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    What is a "Master Key Movement"?
     
  4. Thomas Vince#1

    Thomas Vince#1 New Member

    re:Master Key movements

    Master key movements are movements within the techniques, usually base or beginning movements that allow you to graph one technique into another in a logical sequential manner. Master key movements allow you to to graph say Clutching feathers to conquering shield. If you can't step back you still have to check the hand onto your own head to keep them from pulling your hair out, but you know kick the inside of the rear leg with a thrusting ballkick as you strike into the lymph nodes under the arm. It is easiest to look at the "root" of each movement and then learn to graph these techniques to fit your style and adjust it to continue controlling dimensional zones.
     
  5. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    Is this THE Thomas Vince? Have you lost your previous profile?

    I do hope it is you matey :)
     
  6. Thomas Vince#1

    Thomas Vince#1 New Member

    yes, this is THE Thomas Vince. I know it's been quite a bit since I last showed eer.. my icon around here. It is good to hear from too! While I am here I wanted to respond to Chris J, who said:
    "What exactly is the point of calling this system "Ed Parker's"
    Well Chris it is because it was his system. You see Parker's system will evolve but none of should deviate from the training method. The 154 techniques that he wanted us to learn and to teach he laid out in Infinite insights a five Volume book that lists the techs and the sequential manner in which they were to be taught.
    there are great many more similarities and relationships between kenpo and other arts but a great difference that i dee is the exactness of the stances, they are interesting in the idea stressed that the footwork and stance IS THE WEAPON, everything else is an extension of the stance. the stance immediately allows for multi-dimensional striking.
     
  7. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    Re: re:Master Key movements

    Thanks, Thomas, I will have to re-read that a few times, but I think it raised even more Qs than it answered (for me anyway!)

    and I gotta get a copy of "Infinite Insights..."
     
  8. Thomas Vince#1

    Thomas Vince#1 New Member

    Questions everything...

    Mr. Parker would say:
    " Believe nothing you see, half of what hear and everything you feel." Always question.
    I'm here for ya!
     
  9. matsloth

    matsloth New Member

    the lost idea

    HI THOMAS VINCE I HAVE HEARD A LOT ABOUT YOU ,THE ORIGINAL THREAD WAS ABOUT INSTRUCTORS TEACHING KENPO AS PARKER TAUGHT IT 40 YEARS AGO, NOT AS A PROGGRESSIVE SYSTEM,FROM WHAT IVE READ AND FROM PEOPLE I HAVE SPOKEN TO THAT HAVE TRAINED UNDER PARKER LIKE BILLINGS,ELLIS,TATUM,LA TOURRETTE ECT HE WANTED HIS SYTSTEM TO CONTINUE TO EVOLVE ,BUT THE PROBLEM THAT I HAVE COME ACROSS IS A LOT OF THE PEOPLE EVOLVEING HIS SYSTEM DIDNT UNDERSTAND IT IN THE FIRST PLACE,OR THINK EVOLVEING IT MEANS WATERING IT DOWNS SO IT IS EASYER TO SELL,SIMPLYFYING TECHNIQUES ,EXELERATEING THE GRADEING SYSTEM,TO MAKE MORE MONEY,RE INVENTING TECHNIQUES ,FORMS AND SETS ,LOSEING THE IDEA OF WHAT I THINK PARKERS DREAM WAS,I DIDNT TRAIN WITH PARKER IM ONLY 30 ,SO I THINK ITS DOWN TO PARKERS ORIGINAL STUDENTS TO PASS ON HIS DREAMS,HIS VISION,SO WE CAN HAVE SOME ,AND SEE WHAT YOU SAW,ALOT OF HIS STUDENTS DONT LIKE TO SHARE(ONLY FOR MONEY),BUT APART FROM MY FAMILY KENPO IS MY LIFE .I CHOSE THIS SYSTEM AS IT IS A LIFE INGOLFING STYLE ,YOU CANT DO IT 1/2 DAY A WEEK YOU NEED 4/5 MORE ,IF YOU CAN,I COULD SEE PARKERS GENIUS AND HIS ABILLITY TO USE OTHER PEOPLES SKILLS AS WELL ,I ADVERTISE MY CLUBS AS KENPO KARATE/JITSU,I DONT FEEL I CAN ADVERTISE IT AS ED PARKERS AS I DIDNT TRAIN UNDER HIM,I HAVE BEEN VERY LUCKY,MY INSTRUCTOR IS PROGGRESSIVE AND UNDERSTANDS PARKERS PRINCIPLES,BUT HERE IN SOUTH WEST UK ,YOU HAVE TO WORK IT OUT FOR YOURSELF, WE HAVE MASTER ROSE AND BOB WALSH,THESE ARE GREAT KENPO MEN AND I HAVE TRAINED WITH THEM ,BUT IT IS VERY SYSTEM ORIENTATED, HERE AND I AM A MOTION MAN MYSELF (THE SIENCE OF THE BODY)I HOPE THIS ISNT TO NEGITIVE ,I AM APOSITIVE MAN
    CHEERS
    MATT
     
  10. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    caps Lock Matt ;)
     
  11. matsloth

    matsloth New Member

    kenpo

    TRUE!THERES ONE THING I STILL DONT QUITE GET ,AND THAT IS,WHY IS KENPO STILL A MINORITY ART,WHY IS IT NOT IN THE MEDIA MORE,I HAVE A THEORY (HONEST) I THINK TRUE KENPO (NOT THE WATERED DOWN CRAP)IS TO MUCH FOR MOST ARTISTS TO UNDERSTAND,CAUSE WERE NOT JUST TALKING KICKING AND PUNCHING HERE,AND THATS WHAT WEEKEND WARRIORS LIKE,YOU NOW THE ONE (HE S AT THE LOCAL BAR OR GYM)A HERO IN HIS OWN RIGHT (WELL ARD)YOU START GIVEING HIM SUBSTANCE AND HE DONT GET IT(I USED TO WORK THE DOOR! HE SAYS)WE IN KENPO ARE SCOLARS PEOPLE OF SUBSTANCE ,WE DONT HIT PEOPLE ,WE DICECT THEM,(ILL MOVE HIM RIGHT HERE AND HIT HIM THERE ,THAT SHOULD MOVE HIM HERE SO BAM!THAT DID IT!)KENPO NEEDS TO BE PUBLISISED MORE SO PEOPLE CAN SEE HOW GREAT IT REALY IS!THEN PEOPLE WONT SAY "WHAT IS KENPO!"YOU DONT HEAR PEOPLE SAYING WHAT IS TKD OR JKD OR KICKBOXING .
    MANY THANKS
    MATT
    TIGER TO DRAGON KENPO SCHOOLS
     
  12. Thomas Vince#1

    Thomas Vince#1 New Member

    Kenpo a minority art...

    I think what you mean is that you don't see hundreds of people standing next to each other with a twist punch out in front of them in pictures of gradings. I have seen pictures like this in many japanese and okinawan arts, yet i have rarely seen a picture of this sort when looking a t Kenpo grading. Firstly Kenpo was a killing art that was used for just that. it was an art transformed by the Chinese and brought to the lapanese for thier Samurai. When the class of the Samurai was revoked Kenpo was jilted from the country while ju-jitsu because it held firm to the sanctity of life. This had to do very much with Japans Shintoism.
    Now adays there are business men and women who will exelerate the grading of a Kenpoist, but the real understanding of the craft and i say craft because it is more a skill than an art, it becomes art when it is internalized, it is a highly specialized skill in the physical sense. Not many people can achieve the Higher ranks of this art, because of it's effeciency and effectiveness there are a lot of people who use the kenpo idea to market thier skills.
    understanding what Mr. Parker by what he taught was only the surface, making it work for you was the key. there are some good sources for Kenpo in the UK but you need to head towards the Channel islands. i can help you locate a few good people if you want to continue. Mr. Parker layed out befire he passed away 154 self defense techniques with 16 master key movements, this is how he wanted it taught. As far eveolving you are correct when you say that the art is eveolving in some cases towards those who do not fully understand Kenpo. You do not have to fully understand this art to make it work, it works right away and to expand on something that wirks right away is an easy thing to do on an individual basis. When we teach expansions to those who do not understand the basics properly that is where problems are created. I know that this art is built from the ground up and that everything lies within your stances and your foot work. The basics of proper positioning and execution are minor parts of the deeper art.
     
  13. matsloth

    matsloth New Member

    kenpo

    HI I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SAYING,BUT,TAKE TODAY ,I TOOK A CLASS THAT CONSISTED OF 35 CHILDREN AND 5 ADULTS ,THE MAXIMUM ADULTS I GET ,ON A GOOD NIGHT (USUALLY WENSDAY)IS 15,THATS ABOUT AS BIG AS IT GETS ,DONT GET ME WRONG ,ITS NOT HOW MANY I CAN GET THATS IMPORTANT TO ME,,BUT IF YOU GET A GOOD SIZED CLASS,PEOPLE BOUNCE OFF OF ONE AND OTHERE ,AND PEOPLE GET BUZZING.I WANT PEOPLE TO SEE KENPO FOR WHAT IT IS ,ONE OF THE TOP SYSTEMS IN THE WORLD,
    NOT SOME VILLAGE HALL GET TOGETHER ,NOT LIKE SOME AMATURES ,IT MAY BE SAID THAT THATS WRONG,YOU MAY SAY IT DOESNT MATTER,YOU MAY SAY YOU CAN TEACH 1 THE SAME AS 10,BUT WE ALL KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO BE ONE OF 2/3 STUDENTS ,WE ALSO KNOW WHAT ITS LIKE TO BE IN A BUZZING BUSY CLUB,I HAVE TRAINED HARD TO GET A REASONABLE STANDARD (GOOD ENOUGH TO TEACH)AND I WANT TO PROMOTE MY STYLE,YOU SEE TKD INSTRUCTORS RUNNING PRO CLUBS AFTER 2 YEARS ,WEARING 1ST DAN OR ABOVE ,WTH DOUBLE PAGE ADDS IN LARGE NEWSPAPERS (150 STUDENTS PLUS) ,IM NOT DISSING THEM GOOD LUCK ,WHEN DID YOU LAST SEE A KENPO DEMO ,LIKE THE PARIS SHOW ,OR UK NATIONALS ,YOU DONT,YOU SHOULD,
    WE SHOULD BE SHOUTING ABOUT WHAT WE HAVE,IN THE UK THERE IS ONLY A HAND FULL OF CLUBS ,AND EVEN LESS WORTH LOOKING AT,ALOT OF TALKERS,ALOT THAT HAVE TRAINED WITH,
    PLEASE DONT TAKE WHAT I WRIGHT WRONG ,I ONLY WANT WHAT IS RIGHT FOR MY SYSTEM,AND FOR PEOPLE TO SEE IT FOR WHAT IT IS ,NOT JUST KENPO,BUT KEMPO,AND ALL RELATED STYLES ,BUT FOR ME ITS JUST KENPO,JUST LOOK AT THE THREADS AND HITS ON THE OTHER STYLES ON THIS SITE ,JKD OVER 1000,
    IM PROBABLY JUST RANTING BUT , ILL KEEP ON PUSHING .
    MANY THANKS
    MATT
     
  14. Thomas Vince#1

    Thomas Vince#1 New Member

    you're right the UK is fertile ground for Kenpo and you should take as far as everyone else has and then farther. the children are where it is at for your success and the success for any club and the credibility you build there brings in the adults. Good luck to you man.
     
  15. matsloth

    matsloth New Member

    hi ,thanks,i would like to pick your brains for a minute ,if you dont mind,recently i had a circular from a local instructor in kenpo,hes 6th dan and very experienced ,but i couldnt believe what i read,
    it read for the interest of maintaning skill level we will be holding black belt classes 2x a month at £5 a class ,all dan grades are asked to come ,and he points out that if you dont go,you are not eligable fo grades ,and he wont honour you or your students grades ,i dont usually train with him but i have in the past,but he is my instructors instructor,my instructor is 4th dan,i take this as a peronal insult to my skill,but more than that ,to my instructors skill and judgement,im all for keeping skill at its highist ,but ,who gave him the right to think he can do this,apart from ego,and going back to skill he will soon honour one of his students with a 4th dan who in my opinion have seen better purple belts ,at least in my club,i maybe ranting again ,but ,its thing like this that can ruin a style,basicaly he is saying if i dont train with him ,i cant wear my 1th deg and will never go any further,in grades that is,
    you may now see why i right about kenpo in the uk the way i do,
    to vmany people putting themselfs on pedistals,im a free spirit by attidude ,but a traditionalist by hart,i have great loyalty to my instructor and my clubs,i have disipline and train 101% all the time giveing 102%to my students,some people may not like my opinions but it is all in the best interest of my style,and it is done with the best intentions.
    many thank:)
    matt
     
  16. Chris J.

    Chris J. Valued Member

    Hello,
    There are various things an instructor might or might not be good at. There is the application of the art they teach for one. The business side is another. Some people do very well training people for tournaments, etc., but have no idea about true technique. Others are primarily concerned with making money.
    You must balance what you know about an instructor, learn as much as you can, and then make your decision about who to train with. Also one should research the style extensively.

    Chris J.

    p.s.,
    The last post you wrote was ONE LONG RUN-ON SENTENCE, very hard to read. Communication is a valuable skill.
     
  17. matsloth

    matsloth New Member

    the lost idea

    hi ,i do not agree,it is an instructors responsability to be well rounded,in all aspects of his art,the original thread was "the lost idea"this is how the idea was lost,parkers ideas were lost by poeple picking and choseing what to teach,proggression should not mean takeing away,but evolving,people take it to lightly the responsability of teaching,thats why you get people saying this art is crap or that art is crap,the art isnt crap ,its the instructor,
    dont open a club if you are not good enough ,it will only do your art bad,i judge my instructors by their skill,i hope my students do the same,
    many thanks
    matt
     
  18. Brother John

    Brother John New Member

    Not all Kenpo has "stagnated".
    The AKKI is very much involved in perpetuating SGM Parker's dream into the future.

    Your Brother
    John
     
  19. Brother John

    Brother John New Member

    Yes and NO

    Sort of, yes. I think I see what you are getting at, but this isn't very comprehensive and grafting is not the main use for master key techniques... though I agree it is ONE of them.
    Your Brother
    John
     
  20. matsloth

    matsloth New Member

    hi again,proggression is a matter of opinion,of personal preference,some could say adding kickboxing to kenpo would be adding to it ,or putting in new forms/sets or changeing the syllubus,but i think mr parker and his predasesors,had a dream of proggression,that proggression would be greater understanding of motion ,physics and anatomy,to understand the destruction of the body and mind,to increase ones awareness of your enviroment to advance the concept of width depth and height destruction,kenpo is not for your average idiot that is why they dont get it,its the science of destruction,no waste of motion or energy,no masive moves,just control ,smuther,engolf,some people are born with kenpo,its common sense,i hope one day the kenpo world will come together ,as i have said before, studied corectly this is one of the most devastating systems around,the reason i have created kenpo fighting system is not to add or change,it is something else ,i still mostly teach american kenpo,i use it for people who cross train and just want to understand kenpo,without forms or sets ,sparring is free any range,sometimes with knifes,sometimes with sticks ect trying to incorparate the principles of techniques ,most people treat sparring as a seperate thing ,lots of fitness /conditioning more sport than art,but my true love is kenpo ,hopefully it will bring more people to the true art ,havent the a,k,k,i got a forum of their own ,i think ive been into one .
    any way cheers
    matt
     

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