Kenpo Seminar a Success!!

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by KenpoDavid, Oct 17, 2005.

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  1. kempojosh

    kempojosh Valued Member


    in all fairness, it seems that these grandmasters do make alot of mistakes. why would any master of a system invite somone into an asscoistion and not review any material. it doesn't make any sense. so exactly what happened here? did rash and gascon assume that the other reviewed the tape then 2 or 3 years later realize that neither had reviewed the tape of geary. if a master/grandmaster can not tell is someone deserves to be ranked 6th dan, or any other rank, then is the person really a master.

    if the karenzenpo group really heard alot of bad stories about geary, then why did you guys accept him and his rank without reviewing it.

    on the karenenzempo site they respond to geary. they do not mention that the reason he was in hawaii was to receive his professorship from the hawaiian international martial arts asscoiation/society.

    there are a few things missing from the story on the karenzenpo website.
  2. Joe V.

    Joe V. Valued Member

    I would say this happened... Honorable men of their word, who speak very softly, but hit like a ton of bricks. Actually took someone's, who called himself a Shodan and Master "at his word". After all, these men, (Professor Cerio and Sijo Gascon) would never dream of calling themselves something they were not in the Martial Arts community.

    If Geary joined the KGS BBS with any intent other than to support Sijo Gascon and honor his lineage... Then he had an ulterior motive from the begining... More Stripes!

    Come on Josh, even you and David both have to see that.

    Speaking of seeing... I saw the videos of Geary on his site... I have been teaching Kempo Karate as a Dan rank for almost seven years, have been in the Arts for over 30 years. I was not impressed at all... I will give him the benefit of the dought though. Does he move like that all the time? Was he ill when he filmed that?lol!
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2006
  3. Joe V.

    Joe V. Valued Member

    Man, you have no respect for your Seniors in the Arts...
    I can tell you have never met any of the guys who are "The Real Deal" face to face. You would be much more humble in your approach.
    You can go to Look under the photos link... There is a link to Professor James Bryant walking through 2 Kata. Professor Bryant is a Hachidan. I remember him at Rokkudan... He still moved the same.
    Compare that to anything you have of Geary...
    I would love to hear the comparissons from any one viewing this as well!
  4. kempojosh

    kempojosh Valued Member


    i couldn't find any videos of geary (other than the one where he is doing pinan 1 in the field and then he looks into the sunset). where can i find these videos? and where can i find videos of these other masters performing their techniques?

    the point that i was trying to make about rash and gascon was that it seems to be a very rookie mistake to not review someone before accepting their rank or giving rank to someone. the same thing applies to ceiro. i don't understand how someone will watch a video of someone and say "you're good enough to be a black belt" and then change his mind down the road. i understand that people aren't perfect, but come on.
  5. Joe V.

    Joe V. Valued Member

    KempoJosh, The vidoes of Geary are on his website... If you saw the intro, scroll down, he has a gun technique and does 3 combination.
    I cannot and will not speak for Professor Cerio and Sijo Gascon. I gave you my opinion on what I think happened. Professor Cerio and Sijo Gascon took him at his word, period. They made a mistake. They corrected their mistake. Geary has some distinction! To be demoted and from stripped from the family by two of the most honored and respected men in the Grand Master Mitose family tree!
    Just calling it like I see it.
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2006
  6. kempojosh

    kempojosh Valued Member

    my opinion

    joe v.
    i understand that you can not and will not speak for those 2 men, so you gave your opinion. and i can't speak for geary...but here's my opinion. with all due respect to ceiro and gascon, it appears that they liked geary until geary called them out on the way they ran their house.
  7. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I will be direct. I respect what you have done for our style in your 16 years or so as a black belt. But you guys have shown few limits in your responses to Prof. Geary's article about his impressions of your organization, and in bringing those issues here, to me, and using them to tear me down in a thread that was about an important event in my training as a Martial Artist. I didn't ask to be part of your disagreement with Prof. Geary and I prefer to stay out of these types of campaigns - Prof. Shuras (KGS BBS) came here looking for me. So I think I have the right to say what I mean.

    You can read my request for comparitive video as some sort of challenge, or you can look beyond your emotional defensive response and see it as an opportunity to make your point very dramatically, if it can be so made. It doesn't have to be you yourself, that's not what I was saying... I'm not challenging you to prove you are better than Prof. Geary, I want to look at the videos side by side and see the difference between what you call "purple" now (6th dan a year ago) and what you call 6th today.

    I believe you took his approach in good faith but I also believe that Prof. Geary had high hopes as well, and did not set out to find an organization to resign from. Rather I believe he really did hope to find something important and valuable at the KGS. Unfortunately, you did not live up to his expectations, and he did not live up to yours. You are all human beings, it happens. He wrote candidly about his experiences and resigned from your group. In response, you have set out to discredit him, and it's gotten dirty and dirtier.

    And as for "wearing my teeth for a necklace", :woo: you may try to discredit our schools, but one of the reasons I study martial arts, one of the things I have learned from Professor Geary and Shihan Steiner, is the principle that I should not have to yield my safety, rights, and dignity to violence from the thugs who would try to take them.

    "Threat", "Warning" or "Advice" whatever you want to call it... if I earn a (attempted) beating then so be it but I'm going to say what I mean, sir. I may have 3 years experience in MA but I'm a grown man just like you, and will stand up to a fight not cower and cry. My father taught me as a child that violence is the refuge of a small mind made desperate; and that thugs should be stood up to. So please leave that kind of rhetoric aside, I will be polite and respectful because you are a man like me, not because I'm afraid that you (or anyone else) might attack me one day. :rolleyes:


    Joe V, I've met a few guys with experience that exceed Mr. Rash's 15 years as a black belt; I am humble, and have made nothing but friends (until now).

    But these guys brought this fight to me: a student at one of Professor Geary's schools who has a visibility on some internet forums - an easy target. What am I supposed to do, roll over and hide my tail between my legs because Joe and Mike got some fancy certificates on their walls???? Let them bully me because they've been training longer than I have??? Is that what you would do in my shoes?
  8. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Return of the 'Joe'

    David, I'm back to address and clear up two things then I'll leave. First:prof. Shuras (KGS BBS) came here looking for me.

    Please get this straight. I never came here looking for you. I stumbled upon your post about the seminar and took offense to comments made about Nick Cerio which has been cleared up to my satisfaction by Doc Chapel. It was purely accidental. I'm a straight shooter, if I came here looking for you, I would tell you, David.

    Secondly: What am I supposed to do, roll over and hide my tail between my legs because Joe and Mike got some fancy certificates on their walls????

    I agree, you don't run and hide, there's need for sarcasim ('fancy certificates') either, BUT know this. You have never been to my school. So I know you are just making a generalization because all schools have and should have credentials displayed for the public to check out (I'm sure Chris and Shawn have them) but I am not a 'paper tiger' and I am not a 'paper chaser' and have never been called one. I can and have backed up those 'fancy' certificates on the wall. I am quite comfortable in my own skin and have demonstrated my art in front of many, many students, the public, my peers and my seniors over the decades. Ask anyone that knows me in the arts. I've been training for 33 years and am still closely involved with my first kenpo instructor who got me to black belt and beyond, Hanshi Craig Seavey. That's a long time so I guess loyalty and respect are two of my better qualities.

    As a matter of fact, Chris knows someone that knows me quite well and I've been to his school at an event. A very important event. He's a 'solid' martial artist, tough s.o.b.(and I say that affectionately,lol), he's the real deal. Years ago my wife was burned pretty badly in an industrial accident and I was practically living at U-Mass Medical Center in Worcester, Ma. At the time, her and I did the bulk of the instructing at my school. This man found out about it, I think, through Prof. Cerio and he called and offerred to send someone out from his Virginia school, all the way from Virginia to Mass. mind you, just to keep MY school going. I will never forget that. Never! Feel free to ask him anything about me you would like BUT just one thing. I don't want to get him involved in this battle here, it wouldn't be right. So, I only ask that you keep his name out of it and just check into it privately with no fanfare if you have any doubts about me. Thank you.

    In closing, I have always prided my self in an effort, hey, we're all human, lol, to live up to Kempo's School Rules, every Kenpo/Kempo school I've ever been to has them. Effort, Etiquette, Sincerity, Character, Self Control with that I would like to add a little humility, a very important asset not only in the arts but in life in general. I'm proud of my accomplishments but have the humility knowing it was others who believed in me, stuck by me, worked with me and helped me get here. No one does this martial arts thing alone, you have to be with the right people, in that, I feel I was blessed.

    Okay, sorry to interrupt, you guys can continue your discussion but like I said before, I've said enough and am simply an observer here now. My name didn't come up again until this last post and I just wanted to clear up these two statements. David, no hard feelings. Gentlemen, carry on..............and everyone take a deep breath and try to keep it as civil as possible, I know it's difficult, been there,lol, but Pacificshore was right in his post. This really isn't the place to do it.

    Respectfully, Prof. Joe Shuras
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2006
  9. Joe V.

    Joe V. Valued Member

    We all have rights to speak our minds. I just think you show a lack of respect while you do it. I think this is where your Martial Arts Training is lacking a bit. This is what I tell my students..."If anyone is of a higher rank, you show that person respect for their rank. It is respect for the hard work and dedication they have gone through to achieve the rank you aspire to.
    I can assure you if you had come off as cocky and disrespectful in front of any Senior... You would have learned this lesson very clearly. So I can tell you were humble while you were in their presence.

    However, I have noticed in both your and KempoJosh's posts how you both lightly throw around the names of Professor Cerio and Sijo Gascon. How about you abbreviate their titles? I noticed this on your founders website as well... It seems there is a lack of tradition in your dojo... Please, I am not trying to flame you here. I just base this on what I have read and am reading.

    Did you get a chance to look at the 2 Kata Video of Professor Bryant? Your style should have a version of this form. I teach it for Green Belt. I want to hear your feed back.

  10. Joe V.

    Joe V. Valued Member

    I understand your point and I can say this. What did Geary expect from these men? Did he feel honored by having them accept him to their families? Or, was he just looking for a piece of paper from them? You see, that is my point. It seems that Geary's intent was always to receive gratification and endorsement through less than honorable means. This goes against everything we as Martial Artists stand for.
    Notice how Geary seems to trash his Masters as soon as they stop promoting him? Do you see this? Is it coincidence? Or, is this his M.O.?
    I know you are one of his students, maybe you have some insight as to his motivation to seek out these men in the beginning?
    PS. Did you check out the 2 Kata on I want to know if you have that form in your system.
  11. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    That was not my meaning, sorry if it sounded that way. I meant that having rank or title was not in itself sufficient qualification for respect. If that makes me a bad MA, so be it, I am bad haha
  12. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    I will try to get to that today... I love collecting all the variations of the pinan series, very educational. Do you know where I can get videos of the NCK versions??
  13. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    No problem...

    David's quote:That was not my meaning, sorry if it sounded that way. I meant that having rank or title was not in itself sufficient qualification for respect. If that makes me a bad MA, so be it, I am bad haha
    Today 03:54 PM

    Okay, David, no problem, just a simple miscommunication. It happens a lot on the net where you don't hear the other person's tone when they say something. I do agree with you. If you check back at one of my earlier posts on this thread I did state: "Rank is something you wear, Respect is something you earn." Take care, Joe
  14. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    A sensible conclusion to all this.....

    It's hard to stay away from a good debate! I will attempt to handle this sensitive matter as professionally as possible.

    I think somewhere along the line with emotions on both sides running a little high, we got off track of what actually transpired. Let's try to be as objective as possible on a rather subjective matter. Since we are not representing NCK, let's stick with KGS BBS to be fair to everyone. Let's back track. I was under the direct impression that Mr. Geary's rank was recinded for ethical and disciplinary reasons by Gm. Gascon. Nothing had been discussed about performance or abilities in regards to the revoking of his rank.

    Mr. Geary felt he wasn't getting want he expected of the organization but as far as I can see he has not listed particularly what he expected. They (the KGS BBS entourage) came to his school, paid their own way and put on a seminar for only $20 a head and recognized his 6th dan rank with a ceremony for no fee (as we all know, many ask high fees for such recognition and/or promotion). By the same token, the organization, in time, believed Mr. Geary had a hidden agenda and was using the KGS BBS to advance in rank prematurely. They became a little cynical when around a year after a 6th dan, Mr. Geary, according to the KGS BBS records, requested a promotion to 7th dan. Mr. Geary persisted, according to both Mr. Rash and Mr. Gascon who then decided to distance themselves from Mr. Geary in the hopes he would withdraw his request, one that that they could not and would not grant. Yes, maybe they should have been more direct (but insensitive) and just told him outright but it appears they just attempted to let him down easy. Mr. Geary respectfully resigns from the KGS BBS. He was very respectful in his letter to Gm. Gascon, I read it.

    Time goes by, Mr. Geary's rank is not recinded from the KGS BBS, for there was no reason too. Everyone went their seperate ways which is the way it shoud be. After some time, Mr. Rash, Mr. Gascon and yours truly start to get bombarded with e-mails from all over the country of people complaining about Mr. Geary's Chapter 14 of his autobiography in regards to the negativity and slamming of Prof. Nick Cerio, Gm. Sonny Gascon and Prof. Mike Rash. Remember, in several very cordial phone converstions I previously had with Mr. Geary, when the names Gascon, Cerio and Rash came up, he spoke of them in a respectful manner, despite the problem he had with Mr. Cerio over the bounced check incident which was described to me as a misunderstanding. I know Mr. Geary believes that any publicity is good publicity, he told me this himself from a conversation he had with Gm. Gascon, but I tend to disagree. There is a limit to what one means by bad publicity, a line I'm sure no one would want to cross over into. Over the last decade or so, the Catholic Church (my denomination) has received a lot of bad publicity that I would never consider good publicity. I'll rest my case on that one.

    Martial arts rank, as much as ALL of us try to defend as having some type of objective criteria is still subjective, yes, subject of the human being or beings' who make the judgement call, their OPINION. Therefore, it is not flawless. Objectives can be a guide and should be but the end result is still the opinion of one or more seniors. Now, sometimes these opinions are made and can stand on their own merit. In other words, there was no outside influence, gain, compassion or other motive for rewarding such rank, other times there are questions. It is not up to me to question why a senior decides to recognize or promote someone. It would be disrespectful to question their decision if they are your direct senior, instructor, founder or head of your system and/or organization. As far as anyone else goes, Hanshi Lou Angel has a response for that one, it's "You mind your store and I'll mind mine." They also have the right to change their opinion, yes, change their minds, we are not an oppressed society here. I guess they have the right not even to give a reason why BUT I would prefer for the sake of of the arts that they do give a valid reason and yes, as long as that reason is valid to them it's okay and why? Simple, it's all subjective. Their OPINION. You don't have to personally agree with it because it's a conclusion someone(s) has drawn when given a set of facts and circumstances, no different than a jury. Some information is factual, other information is circumstantial, then the jury gives their OPINION. In the end the decision is still subject of the jury or SUBJECTIVE.

    So, from what I can see, Gm. Gascon's decision was made soley on character. Remember Kempo's 5 school rules: Effort, Etiquette, Sincerity, Character, Self Control. Everyone has an ego, we are all proud of our accomplishments BUT we also have to learn to control and harness that ego. Someone once told me that EGO is how we see ourselves and CHARACTER is how others see us.

    Now, there is talk of videos here. Everyone's curisosity has risen. I stated above, rank promotions in the end are subjective, the opinion of the appointing authority. Okay, then if everyone still wants to debate this, it's simple. Link up the video, it's, from what I understand, I have never seen it, Mr. Geary's best showing of his martial arts techniques for his 6th dan promotion. Let the people decide, not Professor Mike Rash, not Gm. Victor 'Sonny' Gascon BUT THE PEOPLE. Does not Mr. Geary state on his website over and over again about his tremendous abilities in the arts and the record time he climbed the ladder? Don't others, like Mr. Angel who promoted him to 7th dan attest to this on his sites. Hey, I know this sounds sarcastic BUT I HONESTLY can't say it any other way for this is essentially what he says on his websites. I think I even played it down a little. This way it takes any bias out of it and will settle this matter once and for all. No mysteries. Let the cameras roll. Respectfully submitted, Prof. Joe
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2006
  15. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    Prof. Joe, I'm sure you've seen by now the email from Prof. Geary where he let you guys know that he does not release any rights for anyone to put that video on the web or anywhere else (including me). So no video judgement will be passed by the masses I'm afraid.

    I think I agree with that, at least as far as "disciplinary" goes: he wrote some thing that Sijo Gascon and Prof. Rash didn't like and refused to comply with their wishes, they strip him of rank. Ethical? I understand the ethical concerns stemming from the Florida incident, but I don't see how they have anyhting to do with this matter. The KGS was fully aware of all of the details before they accepted Prof. Geary.

    They did NOT pay their own way. Prof. Geary tells me he spent thousands of dollars for plane tickets, meals, and hotel expenes. The lack of a fee for the promotion is honorable and one of the things that the KGS BBS can be proud of. The seminar was about 2 hours long, $20 is a fair price for that. I would have enjoyed longer and more in depth instruction, personally.

    Fair enough. I interpreted the emails that I have seen from Prof. Geary to the KGS BBS not so much as "I want my 7th" but more like "what are the requirements for 7th". I agree, a mesasge saying "It's too early, work towards these kind of goals, we'll talk later" would have been effective. I guess that's the difference between a retired Hawaiian guy and a middle-aged ex-Marine :)

    This is often my response to people who question Professor Geary's rank.

    I think the video is a red herring, a distraction from the real issues which I think we have just addressed. Prof. Rash says that neither he nor Sijo Gascon even reviewed the video before awarding the rank, so it is irrelevant to the discussion. The only reason it came up is becasue Prof. Rash said disparaging things about Prof. Geary's techniqe on the video. I for one will get to see it, and I'm sure if he wants to Prof. Rash can show it to you privately.

    ok I feel that I don't know what else needs to be said. <bow>
  16. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    The saga continues....

    Yes, David you have made some points that I agree with also but there's a few here we can discuss. Okay we agree on disciplinary but not ethical. Like I said, to be fair I can't speak for NCK officially of why Prof. Cerio did the things he did, so I'm not, but I can and did refer to Chapter 14 which created this problem in the first place and in Chapter 14 Mr. Geary states he wasn't sincere with Prof. Cerio, he lied to him and SINCERITY is one of the rules we all preach to our students. I know none of us are perfect and we all mess up some time but you inquired as to why the issue of ethics and I answered. It's not neccessarily a bad thing to mess up (of course unless it's something really bad) and in admitting it, that's a good thing but one should not relish in it. The impression I got from others was 'ha, ha, I lied to Cerio and got him', more or less. I agree that the KGS BBS already knew of Florida so that could not be a factor in the revocation. Totally agree there.

    As far as the correspondance goes on 7th dan, we'll have Prof. Rash comment on that one because he's the one who got the e-mails. What you stated though sounds like what Mr. Geary stated he said to Mr. Cerio right after he received his shodan about going fo nidan. Right? Do you have the two confused? I don't know, I'm just asking. David, thousands of dollars paid out to Rash and Gascon for the trip to Nebraska???? I'm sure Prof. Rash will also answer that one.

    The videos, yes, by now, after that last post, I'm now aware of of what you stated about the videos not happening (but I don't know about that) and I have deep reservations and suspicions due to Mr. Geary's reluctance of his true motives of why not.... who wouldn't? I don't think it's a red herring per se because it was you, I believe, David and I'm going to guess Chris behind the scenes because he posted it on his site, that made an issue of videos to Prof. Rash and Mike said go ahead and post it. I would have to say what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Mr. Geary states his superior abilities then he should be proud to have them displayed for all to see. Great advertizing if it is indeed true and if not........well.....and if he is uncooperative, I will not believe his reasons, that's my perrogative and I honestly think any other independant observer of this thread will not believe it either. I won't keep those in suspense so I'll post this e-mail Prof. Mike got and sent to me next. Thank you for your response. Later, Joe
  17. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member


    From: "Christopher N. Geary" <>
    Date: 2006/01/30 Mon PM 09:07:25 EST
    To: Michael Rash <>, Sijo Gascon <>
    CC: Angela Burmeister <>
    Subject: Video...

    Dear Mr. Gascon & Mr. Rash,
    I am writing to you in reference to my testing tape (see below link). Please
    understand that if you display any part of that tape (that I sent to you in good
    faith) on the internet, I will have no other recourse than to file a legal suit.
    You do not have my permission to display any part of the tape. All techniques
    shown in the tape belong to Christopher N. Geary's Kempo Karate Inc. In
    addition, there are techniques on the video (Tenshi Goju) that Hanshi Angel does
    not want to be made public. My attorney will be notified the very same day it
    goes up or if it appears on any site or internet page.

    On March 13, 2004, Sijo Gascon relinquished all rights to the video and audio
    captured on the same date at the corporate office of Christopher N. Geary's
    Shaolin Kempo Karate Inc. Therefore, I have the right to display the video and
    audio. A copy of the relinquishment is attached below.

    In reference to -

    I am courtesy copying my attorney, Ms. Angela Burmeister.

    Professor Christopher N. Geary Shichidan (7th Degree Black Belt) Hall
    of Fame Inductee WHFSC & HMAIS
  18. Saz

    Saz Nerd Admin

    I think this thread has more than run its course now.
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