Kenpo for the Cage

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by dbmasters, Apr 16, 2006.

  1. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    Because our system is Buddhist based in it’s philosophy we always desire that the opponent will learn from their actions and that minimum long-term damage will be done. Of course the more determined they are and the more danger you’re in will necessitate a insurance factor on your behalf. If you lock or pin them and you believe that you are going to be in danger on release then you will need to incapacitate them via choking, atemi strike or dislocation. From a technical side, once a lock or pin is applied it remains functional because of the pain and loss of movement, once the joint dislocates the opponent then has a greater range of movement and can escape of counter attack. Being able to judge the point of best force for pain but still not dislocating the joint is necessary for the effectiveness of the technique in self defence situations as well as being in line with our philosophy.

    There are six characteristics of Shorinji Kempo.

    Ken Zen Ichinyo – Body and mind are the same
    Riki Ai Funi – Strength and love stand together
    Shushu Koju – Defend first, attack after
    Fusatsu Katsujin – Protect people without injury
    Goju Ittai – Hard and soft work only together
    Kumite Shutai – Pair work is fundamental

    As you can see, Riki Ai Funi and Fusatsu Katsujin are directly related to our topic. Riki Ai Funi means that not only do we need to have the strength to act when needed but we also have the strength to forgive when appropriate, for example if the attacker has a genuine change of heart.
  2. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    If somebody is attacking myself, my family, my friends, what-have-you, the absolute last thing on my mind is gonna be if the attacker is going to have a change of heart, or about forgiving him, and I would suspect, in the heat of the moment, most others would do the same.

    Forgiveness and change of heart are worthy efforts to be made after the fact, during the melee I intend to strike hard and often to vital areas.

    You do have a good point about the advantage of joint lock over dislocation, however, I would suspect that dislocation/break would also likely cause enough pain (including the preceeding lock) to allow a viable escape to be possible.

    At least that how I see it in my minds eye.
  3. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    So far all the conflicts I’ve had have been control related I have yet to be in a life or death type of fight where the attacker is seriously trying to kill me. What you suggest is true, and I did state that earlier. The greater the personal risk, the greater the chance of inflicting serious injury because the stress will change the strategy and prime concerns of the conflict. I should point out though that not desiring to cause injury in no way makes our techniques less effective in self-defence, trust me when I say that our techniques are no less effective in stoping conflict than other arts. After WW2 when Doshin So had returned to Japan from China, he and his students fought a series of serious confrontation with the local Yakuza. The Yakuza usually used knives or swords, while the Shorinji Kempo kenshi were unarmed but used iron bars taped along their forearms for protection. Their success at driving the Yakuza from Tadotsu was the reason that the Governor of Tadotsu gave Doshin So the land to build the Temple on that is our headquarters.

    Our Headquarters. Just for interest the middle building is the Dojo, it has three floors and can train 2000 people at a time. The tall skinny building is a museum, while the outer buildings are admin, accommodation, and a Shorinji Kempo high school and tertiary study centre.
  4. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    I'd never suggest the techniques are less effective (or, not on purpose anyway), my criticism lies more with the mind than the body. I guess my thought, while never having been in a "life or death" stuggle either, is that I wouldn't be thinking "OK, he is only trying to hurt me, not kill me, so I'll do [insert technique]", my mind would first think "WTF, I'm gonna kick this guys ass".

    Last night my Kenpo class was small (spring in Minnesota seems to make people have better things to do) I was slow sparring with a guy that has like 12 year of some sort of judo/jitsu type of art (I got him to tap out a couple time, very proud of myself :D ) working clinch, takedown and submission, and I'll tell ya, when that guy gets a joint lock on you, ya ain't going nowhere. With that, I will say I have no doubt your techniques are effective, just saying my mind wouldn't work in a way to think about, My first instrinct outside the gym would be to just kick ass hard until he's laying there moaning in pain...after all, the ******* attacked me.
  5. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    When in conflict the Japanese value something they call heijo shin, it translates as something along the lines of a calm mind and spirit. How this affects the dynamics of conflict is that you have no thought of winning, losing, life or death as these thoughts are distracting to the task at hand. Heijo shin allows you to react quicker and more decisively, giving you your best chance of coming out alive. I don’t think my approach would be greatly different to yours. Ideally the conflict should be over in the fastest most effective way possible. The only exception may be that we don’t teach killing techniques. The techniques are aimed at not causing serious permanent damage, but certainly have the capacity to do so. I won’t be trying not to hurt them, just that if I do the techniques well I shouldn’t cause serious permanent damage. The forgiving part comes after. Would you have the strength to forgive someone if they genuinely changed their nature and the way they treated people?

    The aim of budo is to stop conflict, check out the Budo Kensho for a complete memorandum on the meaning of budo as agreed by a panel of high level martial artist from a range of Japanese martial arts. Stopping conflict goes much further than winning a fight; this is just its base level. One of the best ways to end conflict is to develop relationships, to do this sometimes we need to forget about the past and seek to make judgments based on current evidence. We also need to be able to empathise with people to gain some understanding of why they act the way they do. It is because of these higher ideals that Budo is thought highly of in Japan, more so than the fighting ability.

    Shorinji Kempo was developed by Doshin So as a training method to develop future leaders. He felt Japan lacked an understanding of humanity. He wanted to create leaders that had the strength to act morally regardless of personal risk, to act with compassion, and to genuinely care about others in society. He had two favourite sayings “The person, the person! Everything depends on the quality of the person. This means race, religion, or culture play little in how leaders treat their people; what matters is the quality of the person. His other favourite saying was “Live half for yourself and half for others”.

    To tie all this together, I guess I would say that while I understand what you are saying, and I’m prepared to admit that I too would probably think this way. My aim is to try and reach Doshin So’s ideals as they make much sense. I would like to be remembered for more than just being a good fighter.
  6. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    I am glad the gym I train at doesn't dive into all that stuff. While I find it admirable, I also find it distracting. We train fighting and self defense, the kids classes dive more into the ethics, morals and life lessons stuff, but the adult classes don't. I have little to know desire to learn and codes or moral base from my training, I want to just learn to fight.
  7. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    And therein lies the personal value of a martial art. I had two new people at my class last night; they had come to watch the different martial arts that were on. There was Kickboxing, Aikido and my Shorinji Kempo class. Both of them asked me which art was the best. My answer to them was that they should try them all and decide this for themselves. Martial Arts are a very personal experience, what suits one person may not suit another, apart from the self defence we all have different other expectations of how the training will add value to our lives.

    Just to clarify Shorinji Kempo, while there are issues of morality taught, the main emphasis is to provide a method to develop peoples understanding of human nature and behaviour. To be quite honest as effective as Shorinji Kempo is as a method of self-defence, I have had more practical benefit to my life over the years through the philosophy than the physical martial art aspect. The way the philosophy works is not to tell you how something should be, but to encourage you to think about aspects in a deeper way and develop your own understanding.

    I have a couple of questions for you. Do you think methods of fighting should be taught without some insurance that those being taught would act honourably within the community? Do you really believe that the training you are doing does not teach some moral ethics or attitudes? They may not be defined in class, but I bet there is an identifying culture that sets your training group apart from others, this will be based on your instructor’s view of life.

    I have dragged us of topic a bit and apologise. The discussion is of interest to me, and I thank you for allowing me to understand your personal training goals.
  8. dbmasters

    dbmasters Valued Member

    With the kids classes we are very sure to make sure each child knows when to use and not to use the skills they are learning, it's covered often and the speech is given every time a new student starts class for the first time and added in many times aside from that.

    With the adults it depends very much on the class, most of the classes besides Kenpo are arts for the octagon. When new people come in that give off that vibe that they want to learn these skills for bad reasons, well, lets just say their first couple classes weed them out more often than not.

    We really don't teach a moral lesson of when to use the skills to adults, but we do keep close watch on people that want to train. Our gym is, on the whole, not violent by nature, unless in the ring. I like to run on the assumption that adults have a decent moral base already in life, we spend more of that kind of energy with the kids who are still forming such things.

    I hope that makes sense.
  9. bdocili

    bdocili New Member

    What forms are you talking about that had locks and takedowns? Mountain Meets River has the Fast Throw built into it which is a takedown. I am trying to think of what you are talking about with a strike followed by a lock?

    By the way, I am a black belt from the Castro lineage (Senior Professor Genaro Jose was my teacher) so I know all of the forms very well. I am just not sure what you are referring to.
  10. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    I was just rewatching UFC 4 last night to see Keith Hackney's fights. He was a 2nd degree black in White Tiger Kenpo at that time. He did rather well and I had forgotten how well he did with it. He did some interesting ground and pound on Joe Son (repeated groin strikes) that won his first match and his second match-up with Royce Gracie was also not bad. He definately worked some ground work and stayed on his feet for a while. Just thought I'd mention it.
  11. shaolinmonkmark

    shaolinmonkmark Valued Member

    To Guf, on Keith Hackney!!!

    I guess now Keith is getting ready for his 5th or 6th, and word going around is that just like Jeff speakman, he is incorporating more ground work into his personal style.
    As far as Kempo in MMA, i think for this thread, i can say it is good to be well rounded, and practice both at the same time.
    Hey, if you got a fellow student at your school who is close in rank, and he wants to work ground with you, hey, practice it, it can only help you out and it gives insurance that you have some capabilities to get you out of any bad predicaments.
    My school works both, and yes, we still work forms and weapons and "anything goes sparring" ( it goes to ground then go with it, but with control.)

    Anyways, click on or copy and paste this link cause like i said, he is really into helping kempo evolve.
  12. Kenpo_Master

    Kenpo_Master New Member

    It takes a skill fighter to know how to controle his art. Any thug could easily beat a aponant to death. Where a skilled fighter knows how to disable a attacker with out. Cause for serious injury to either fighter.

    Sorry for my horrible grammar and spelling.
  13. Kenpo_Iz_Active

    Kenpo_Iz_Active Greek Warrior-not 300

    well, Kenpo is kinda like MMA, since it is mixed with soo many arts. other than the katas, nothing about it seems super fancy, yet it's effective, and apparently, effective even in the ring. Take that MMA! LOLz
  14. shaolinmonkmark

    shaolinmonkmark Valued Member

    Alot of kempo schools do not do grappling!

    What i have found out, based off my own experiences, is that Alot of kempo schools do not go over grappling!
    It's just all stand up.
    I believe we should all be well rounded just in case.
    I think of it like Insurance: It's their if ya need to use it.
  15. Kenpo_Iz_Active

    Kenpo_Iz_Active Greek Warrior-not 300

    yea, true. why didn't ed parker take it into account? he mixed just about every art, y not judo or BJJ, or sumthin'?
  16. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Maybe Ed Parker realised that the average street thug probably isnt a bjj/judo or wrestling expert,more like someone that wants to wack(read english for hit/punch etc) you quick and steal your wallet,
    or sometimes just wack you in the head for the sake of it!,not go rolling all over the floor and risk getting caught or hurt.
    Personally i love grappling and think the attributes it develops can benifit any martial artist,
    also its good fun if done correctly,however i dont buy into the 95% of street fights go to the ground deal.
    Today i taught one of my friends who is a policeman and he said exactly the same thing,
    in his experience hardly any of his inncidents have gone to the ground in 3 years on the force,also the last place you want to be is on the ground (either as the attacker or the attacked) in a toilet of a british pub!,
    so perhaps Mr Parker realised this and hence the lack of groundwork in his Kenpo :)
  17. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    Parker had black belts in judo (or was it jujutsu... Okazaki?) and was known to train with Gene Lebell. So he probably did know some ground fighting :) and standing grappling for sure.

    However, depending on the teacher, the issue is addressed. Kenpo in general is more concerned with preventing the takedown as opposed to winning once down there; however (again depending on the teacher!) the ground is not ignored. kenpo groundwork (in my experience) has a strategy of survival and extraction (back to standing) rather than submission, so the scope is not as broad as it is in an art whose strategy is to win off the feet.
  18. K3MP0

    K3MP0 New Member

    What's cage fighting?
  19. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

  20. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    And this...

Share This Page